AOII Indices one more time

Hello again. The post below was my first post, although I've been reading this message board for quite some time. Just wondering if I didn't word something right or said something wrong because I have gotten no responses. As I am still learning, this is kind of discouraging. Any beneficial input is greatly appreciated.
gh

I am sorry that nobody answer your post below. There you wrote:

Hello to all!! I am a relatively new AP and have been using KO preferred with pretty modest success. I have recently started learning and practicing AOII without much difficulty and was wondering which of the indices, besides the fab 18, would give me the most benefit without having to learn all 150+ of the variable playings of this system? I play mostly 2deck H17 DAS, double on any two cards; and occasionally SuperFun 21 single deck. About 70% penetration for both. Any help here is appreciated.

My main piece of advice would be not move up to AO2 until you have mastered all other aspects of AP. In particular, you should know something about optimal betting, comps, etc.

However, whatever system you play, here are some additional indices to consider. If you haven�t done so, incorporate Cacarulo�s plays: doubling 8v5,6, and A8 v5,6. The latter is a high profile play, and one which you may wish to avoid for a while.

Also, learn the negative hitting plays, 13 v 2-6 and 14 vs 2-4. You can learn the others if you want.

I also use 10v9, and 11v10,9, and 9v4.

We had some discussion on Green Chip about this, and there were some links to some other studies.

Thanks a lot, MathProf!!! This will give me a great starting point with this system until I have it completely mastered. One more questiion: would you consider a Green Chip membership to be a worthwile investment to me even though I am not a seasoned pro like most of the rest of you guys?
Thanks again!
gh

My main piece of advice would be not move up to AO2 until you have mastered all other aspects of AP. In particular, you should know something about optimal betting, comps, etc.

I have studied Bryce Carlson's optimal betting system, and I have been doing pretty decent with comps at the casinos where I play. What else would you suggest?
Thanks again!!
gh

greenhorn

Concerning MathProf's piece of advise to play advance strategy in negative counts (hitting 13 against a 2 - 6 and 14 against a 2 - 4). I'm not saying he is wrong, but I disagree with this statement when other extremely relevant advise is not offered at the same time. The reason I (strongly) disagree is that adopting these (non basic strategy) plays (assuming you have a minimum bet on it)is one of the top 3 give-aways to the casino that you are a card counter and not a desirable player for them. Incidentally, in my opinion the other 2 main give-aways are how a player plays 16 (excluding 8, 8 which you should split) against a 10 (always hitting with a minimum or low bet out & always standing with a high bet out), & only taking insurance when a player has high bets out. The tape of the shoe only needs to be analysed to confirm that it was to the players advantage to take insurance (regardless of whether the dealer makes bj or not) etc.

My advice is to stay under the radar screen when it comes to playing bj at your pre-expert stage. Don't get backed off now, as your current level of betting is only nickel & dime compared to where you could end up in the near to medium term future. Even a single backing off can raise serious implications.

In other words I strongly suggest that you start adopting some camouflage techniques NOW, the first being play basic strategy on minimum bets (until you get to the stage of using advance camouflage techniques). Also start mainly sitting on 16 (excluding 8, 8) against a 10. (I'm also assuming that you don't have surrender). Regarding insurance start taking a little at the wrong time (this only takes a small % off your earnings, but pays for itself many times over when it comes to (your) longevity of a non backed off player).

I hope this is of some help.

Cheers

NZ

Guys

I forgot! A players bet spread, especially bet spreading & winning is a big giveaway of a counter to the casino.

Major

Guys

I forgot! A players bet spread, especially bet spreading & winning is a big giveaway of a counter to the casino.

Major

......The late Dr Lawrence Revere once stated: "Your disadvantage may be more than your advantage".............take insurance once in a while, even if it isn't warranted......play only basic strategy in negative counts..............duh????

Telling a new player to become paranoid about being backed-off for any basic strategy deviation play is just dopey advice. The most important advice is learn the game cold and perfect your counting skills at the lower levels. That someone should become so worried about only insuring larger bets; standing on 16 with larger bets, is just over the top. These are probably 2 of the most profitable deviation plays to be had from counting. Further, you are making an assumption that everybody plays perfect basic strategy, so any deviation will clearly stand out and mark you as a counter. Very bad advice. Watch a ploppy or a drunk play. In 1/2 hour, I bet they make a dozen plays that are not correct basic strategy plays - most likely, a hell of a lot more.

Math Prof's advice is right on. Learn the damn game, and the additional benefits you glean from counting only enhance your expectation. This includes playing deviations from basic strategy in both positive and negative counts. Further, if you are playing properly, there should be lots of times you stand on a 16 with a minimum bet out - especially if the game is dealt face-up

to yourself and Major, even though there is some disagreement. Judging by MathProf's reputation on this board, I am going to try to utilize his suggestions, but I appreciate everyone's responses. I will probably need to adopt my own style, based on a combination of everyone's advice. Again, as I'm still developing and can use all the knowledge I can get, thanks to all for the input.
Happy Hunting!!
gh

There are a few count systems that are not for everyone. AOII is one that would fall into that category. After reading your request (my apologies as I wasn't paying attention to the public board lately, or I would have commented sooner) it is clear that you are operating under a false premise. AOII is incredibly powerful, and to not use all the indices in either a single or double deck game means that you shouldn't take the time to learn it in the first place. This is not a criticism, but a statement of fact.

Your intention of increasing your skill is admirable, but like anything in life, hard work and practice is required to become "highly skilled" at anything, and seeing that there is "real" risk in BJ, it's in your best interests to take it seriously.

All count systems will "get the money", it's just that some are stronger than others. The stronger systems require a great deal of dedication, and for most people, level 1 counts are just fine.

To use AOII without all the indices is a major waste of time, as there are no substitutes for hard work. And make no mistake about it, it is work (practice) to maintain the level of skill necesaary to play at a higher level.

cheers
bfb

Dr Wogga

I have a few moments so I will respond to your criticism.

KISS (keep it simple, stupid). Firstly I'm not implying you are stupid, it's the saying that is relevant here.

In my opinion for a new counter it's better to first learn basic strategy until it becomes second nature. I'd say for the first couple of months a novice counter should always minimum bet & always play basic strategy (never insure). When the player considers him or her self proficient enough to start chipping up, they should THEN start bringing in some camouflage play. You must admit it's easier to forget about advance strategy play in negative shoes? (just always stand on those hands....don't go there...the effect on earnings is negligible, as the player should have a minimum bet out there). Other factors, like not always playing negative shoes come in here, which also minimises the times these playing situation come up.

I said mainly stand on 16 (not 8, 8) against a 10. I will always stand with a big bet out, but also lots of times in a negative shoe with a minimum bet (not the other way around).

I will always insure when it is well in my favour, but I will occasionally insure a minimum bet or take even money. One doesn�t have to get carried away to throw them off the trail.

Have you read "Burning the tables at Las Vegas" by Ian Anderson? Some great stuff in there. I suggest you read it , if you haven't.

So greenhorn, I strongly suggest you take my advice on this one as you don't want to end up in the situation of looking to play with false ID or a with a disguise on (or both....lol). Dr Wogga, I hope you are not at this stage?

As for MathProf I agree he is one of the best contributors to this site & I also have the upmost respect for him. I haven't met him (that I know of), but I do know people that know him. Also I didn't actually say he was wrong, but I thought his statement (playing advance strategy in negative shoes) was misleading without further clarification.

I would be interested to get a comment from MathProf, but I don't think even he can write his way out of this one!

All the best.

(Master) Major