Does the pit, or the decision maker (whoever it is), take into consideration whether the "counter" is tipping and maybe cut him more slack if he is taking care of the dealers?
Thanks,
Slowhand
I was playing this weekend and had a dealer complain to me about 2 guys winning big and not tipping at all. I wanted to tell her to go eff herself, but I smiled and made sure that she knew that I was "Losing" and still tipping. I don't know if you can measure how much this really helps, but I do my best to keep the dealer on my side.
"... I smiled and made sure that she knew that I was "losing" and still tipping. I don't know if you can measure how much this really helps, but I do my best to keep the dealer on my side."
It'll be interesting to see what Mr. Cellini has to say about this. I can't imagine that the casino cares about its dealers, once they've determined that you're a winning player. Maybe I'm wrong. But it's certainly an expensive strategy, and if you give away too much, you won't be a winning player any longer; the dealers will be the only winners.
My own general tipping comments, which have been posted before:
TIPPING STRATEGIES FOR NEW PLAYERS, by LVBear584
One of the most frequently asked questions by newcomers concerns tipping the dealer.
The answer that most experienced players give is simple: �DON�T TIP AT ALL.�
There are pros and cons to this answer, however, so we�ll address various scenarios involving different types of players. You can determine which scenario best fits your situation.
For players who play short sessions and move around from casino to casino frequently (�hit and run� playing method), there is no reason to tip. This style of play is based on the casino not remembering you from session to session. Therefore, any perceived �advantage� you may gain from tipping is eradicated by the very fact that they don�t remember you next time, anyway.
Some believe that tipping will improve playing conditions, such as the dealer increasing penetration. While there are very rare exceptions, this is usually a fallacy. Most dealers will not even make the connection between your occasional tip and better penetration. Asking for it outright and offering to tip in exchange for it borders on collusion with the dealer, which could get you and the dealer into serious legal trouble, if anyone wanted to make an issue of it. Also, the dealer could mention your request to the pit, which would immediately mark you as a knowledgeable player. The average ploppy doesn�t know anything about penetration and has no reason to care about it.
RED CHIP AND LOW GREEN CHIP PLAYERS, which covers the vast majority of new players, really cannot afford to tip much, if anything. It�s very easy to fall into the habit of tipping. At this level of play, it must be avoided, or a winner can easily turn into a loser.
Tipping just consumes too much of the profit derived from playing blackjack at the red chip or low green chip level. Even if you actually were able to get an extra round dealt because of the tip, the cost of the tip will frequently be more than the Expected Value of the hand. Let�s assume an advantage of 2% on the next hand, that would have been shuffled away without the tip. With a $50.00 bet, the Expected Value of the hand is about $1.00. If you tip $1.00, you�ve given away the entire Expected Value. What�s the point?
It may sound cheap, but just don�t do it. At the red or low green chip level, tipping as a form of �cover� is just too expensive. At this level, you can�t afford much �cover� at all, certainly not just giving away money.
GREEN CHIP PLAYERS, if you�re spreading 1-8, the $1.00 tip with your $200.00 max bet will look silly, and may insult and anger the dealer. Tipping more than $1.00 again may eliminate most of the Expected Value of the hand.
Many dealers feel that they�re �entitled� to tips, and to them, a small tip is worse than no tip at all. With no tip, they may just think you�re ignorant of tipping, which is just what you want them to think.
If you play at the same places often, maybe, MAYBE tip a dollar somewhere along the line; such as once every two or three sessions. Certainly no more than that.
A pleasant personality and polite demeanor at the tables will win you more �points� with dealers and pit staff than tipping. Remember that dealers have to put up with players whining when they lose, cursing, throwing cards, generally obnoxious drunken behavior, etc. Always being polite and pleasant, even in your losing sessions, will make you appreciated in your regular casinos.
When you move up to heavy green action or above, the tipping issue becomes more important, as most high-roller ploppies tip. When you reach that level of play, you will have to decide how tipping fits into your overall �act.� At that level of play, you will also need some �cover,� at which time tipping (modestly) may be helpful as a form of �cover.�
But for the new player, JUST DON�T DO IT!
In a shoe game, or a double deck game with a card to let the dealer
know when to shuffle, I think it is pointless to tip. On the other
hand, in single and other double deck games, it seems you can get a
better game at times by tipping. The problem I have with this is that
if the dealer knows you want him(her) to deal farther, and does so
when you tip, haven't you blown your cover? And if this same
dealer talks with a boss or becomes one himself, isn't your situation
even worse. I think the real answer may be 'don't talk and don't tip'
when possible. Besides, I hate supporting dealers since they are
employed by a player's nemesis, who in my opinion is also an enemy
to society in general.
PS. I do not think as a general rule the casino tolerates a tipping
counter any more than a stiff counter.
LVBear,
Thanks for the advice, I generally try to tip very little, but as you pointed out a red chipper like myself cannot really afford to tip at all.
The american fixation with tipping is crazy baby.We have to tip everyone who in the course of their job has to come in contact with us.Cab drivers,barbers,barmen,waitresses,if you ask someone for the time on the street they will probably ask for a tip.
this is greedy for the non-needy.what has happened to good service and pride in the service of others?
I used to be a bartender in a crazy joint and the dudes i remember with fondness where the ones with a smile on the face and a willingness to treat me as an equal who had the great power to get them drunk!
What i disrespect are the dudes who tossed me some extra dough expecting better and faster service and didnt say please or even send a smile my way.
in the way of BJ dont think throwing someone a few extra bucks will get you far.Be nice to the guy have a laugh make sure they think you respect them.
you ever seen a dude barred for not tippin?
but baby if you wanna make money then dont even tip a honey!
What a great thread about tipping. One other thing to consider: Who's
got more money? You or the casino. If dealers need tips to survive it's because the cheap casinos don't pay enough. They attempt to make their problem be your problem. Don't buy into it. Casinos make plenty of money, pay your dealers!
unless you're getting a visible benefit by tipping (greater pen, dealer doesn't holler "checks play", etc) then tipping is a complete waste of time. The toke rate for the dealers is plenty high enough with tips from the ploppies and Ben Afleck.
That said, even I am weak and my tokes average about $3 per hour (and I bet heavy green to just short of purple).
What a great thread about tipping.
thanks baby!
One other thing to consider: Who's
got more money? You or the casino.
I would say the casino or else they would be coming to my pad!
If dealers need tips to survive it's because the cheap casinos don't pay enough.
I hear ya thats how money lovin huggin the casinos are they throw out the winning babies and dont pay the delightful dealing dollies there due pay
They attempt to make their problem be your problem.
If they with all the million billions cant pay those great hard working people the dough,then how can I?
Don't buy into it. Casinos make plenty of money, pay your dealers!
Hey crazy baby!Have a look at your own words,thats like saying I make a load of dough so i should get someone else to feed my babies.
Every parent has to look after their own family members,if you walk into somones pad do you expect to feed the kiddies there?
If tipping makes you feel good then tip your heart out.
If your objective is to maximize your EV then your tipping $$$ better result in a direct increase in EV through alternate means... otherwise forget it!
As for prolonging your AP play time by greasing the dealers... this doesn't work. The floor sups do not share in the tips... and in fact, at some places, the casinos have a difficult time finding dealers willing to take promotions to supervisor because it can result in a decrease in pay. On top of this... from the eye's perspective, considering that the surveillance staff do not share in the tips your extra bucks are going straight down the drain.
Now for the punchline... "isn't tipping a city in China?"
Enjoy!
GD
I agree wholeheartedly with Cellini's response above this string.. a lot of venues appear to adjust heat according to tokes. My experience has been that it occurs most in corporate shops where the floor truly is a bunch of ex-dealers with minimal financial stake and that toking makes the least difference in places that are sole-proprietorships... where either the owner is lurking the pits herself or a top lieutenant of hers is on duty.
Beyond Cellini's response, however, is the fact that the counter's best interest is served by keeping the pit in the dark in the first place via strategic toking.
First off, it never serves squat to tip off the bat when you're face is fresh. Secondly, it serves little to tip a stoic dealer who's just going through the motions. Other dealer's may be outgoing and into the game but clearly not tuned into what you're doing.. save the dough here as well.
But the dealer who's in tune with hand values as they are dealt or who appears cognizant of bet size variations, even if not alarmed by them, is a ripe target for some matched bets on the second pack I ramp on, even with camo. It's not hard to read a dealer by the way they act and where a toke is likely best provided.
And yes, if you win on a ramp and the dealer acts expectant in the slightest, a parting toke is clearly helpful insurance that they won't share any such frustration with the critter on their way to the break room and nudge his attentions in my direction.
Toke size certainly depends on average bet size but it can also be adjusted by table norms. I find I can undersize my tokes relative to my bet size if I'm the only one toking and I'll get out-sized appreciation for it just the same. Conversely, even a right-sized toke looks cheap at a hot table alongside a free-spending, B52 slamming, roller.
With all the work one goes through to gain an edge, it's hard to imagine one wouldn't gain a little more by making their tokes count the most.
Spokanimal
Green Dawg writes: "As for prolonging your AP play time by greasing the dealers... this doesn't work. The floor sups do not share in the tips... and in fact, at some places, the casinos have a difficult time finding dealers willing to take promotions to supervisor because it can result in a decrease in pay. On top of this... from the eye's perspective, considering that the surveillance staff do not share in the tips your extra bucks are going straight down the drain."
I think Cellini pointed out that if the people in the eye are already doing an analysis, tipping won't save you. I don't believe there is an entry in BJ Survey Voice for tipping.
But I think tipping is a wise investment, as Cellini points out, because it makes you look like a gambler, whether the people watching are sharing in the tips or not. They're not a bribe, they're part of cover. (Stiff the I.R.S., if you want to save $.) Know your E.V., plan to bet a percentage of it for the dealers, and plan to bet for the dealers mainly when you're winning, so you can bet more then. Everyone understands if you're not tipping when you're losing.
But I guess this might make your job harder, hmmm, Green Dawg?
I wonder if the people that don't tip dealers also stiff cab drivers, waitresses, hair stylists, etc? Most times the service has been performed and your out the the door right? No, you throw them something because you know they make next to nothing and they deserve it because they did a good job for you. Why is a dealer any different? Fine, don't tip the crummy dealer but show some respect to the guy that delt you a clean fast game, called for beverages when you needed them, and didn't alert the boss when you stopped hitting against the high card with a positive count. Just my thoughts.
"That said, even I am weak and my tokes average about $3 per hour"
As am I. Not that much, but any amount is too much for me. Why do I feel a need to tip?
if it makes you feel better. We've all had to listen to dealers whine about their financial or personal woes, haven't we?
The easiest thing to say is that you are "way down", and you can even name a figure if you wish. Loss of job, divorce, trying to earn rent money (no new shoes for the baby, please), any tear-jerker story will buy you a little extra time before the average dealer expects a tip.
Good conversation is useful as cover and in lieu of tipping, especially if someone else at the table is taking care of the dealer. The bottom line is that the dealer is going to have to deal to you whether she likes it or not, and you have to think of yourself first whenever you play--if you're trying to win. Tipping at the tables is highly overrated, IMO, especially since I play red and green.
like that scene from the beginning of "Reservoir Dogs"... I recommend renting if someone out there hasn't seen it!!
A discussion on the benefits of tipping to prolong play is like six of one and one-half dozen of the other. When it relates to the dealers and floor sups, I do not believe there is a correct answer.
Example #1: You can be playing at a certain table and regardless the amount you tip the floor sup is "up your ass" like there's no tomorrow. Maybe he's bored... or he's hot for a promotion. Who knows...
Example #2: Your playing at another table and the floor sup, who just got their vacation request denied, doesn't give a rats ass what your doing... they just want their shift to end. Who knows...
Does this make my job easier? asks Radar O'Reilly. This is truely a loaded question since what I do for a living has no relation to any form of casino gaming. The answer is no.
By the way... I tip when I play... however only if the dealers attitude warrants a tip. Does this buy me some cover? Well I'm so far under the radar (except O'Reilly's) that it probably doesn't even matter.
Enjoy!
GD
nt
