Advice please! For a BSer: single deck advantage vs multi-deck?

I POSTED THIS ON THE GREEN CHIP BOARD TOO, SO DON'T BOTHER IF YOU CAUGHT IT THERE. JUST COVERING ALL BASES!

I am strictly a BSer. I don't count yet (want to get BS down to second nature first--getting close).

From what I read there is still an advantage--not just for counters, but even for BS players--playing SINGLE deck vs multi-deck (4 or more) games.

What are your opinions, please?

In general, being realistic, what are the best table rules, decks, etc, for a BSer? Which casinos in LAS VEGAS would you recommend for a BSer according to those conditions?

The real question is I guess: Is a single game worth it for a BSer, if, for instance, you can't surrender or ds or rsa, and if dealer hits s17 (as is the case at Horseshoe and LV Club)?

I subscribe to BJ News but I need to know what I am looking for in table rules, decks, etc, STRICTLY AS A BSer.

To be really specific--again as a BSer, non-counter--am I better off to head downtown (Horseshoe or LV Club I assume) and hit the single-deck games or stay on the Strip (usually Mirage) where I have had pretty good success and play multi-deck games.

Thanks for all your help, folks. It's appreciated.

CBJN has the rules, as well as off the top house edge and other info.
The difference in shoe versus pitch (single and double deck) is, for your purposes, very little. With BS you always play at a slight disadvantage, ranging from about .18 to .60%. Since you will follow BS by learning to count, this will be a diminimus loss. You might want to play both shoe and pitch, gaining experience and comfort at both formats. Due to shuffle downtime, you will get in more playing time at the shoe than pitch, and can even change tables at the shuffle. If you can stand to look at them, the CSMs (continuous shuffle machines) offer more hands per hour and for the BS player, no effective difference in house edge. Since you are not counting at this point, you can direct your attention to the procedures, particularly how they keep an eye on any high stakes players. Use the relatively mindless BS period of your training to learn your environment; knowledge learned will come in handy later, when you become a threat.

regards,
adhoc

strict basic strategy follower your best bet is the game that has the most player-favorable rules (S17, DOA, DAS, RSA, surrender) and the least number of decks. This reduces the house edge to it's lowest, but it is still a negative edge, so you will need some luck to come out ahead. The longer you play the more likely the house will be to take your money, so go for shorter sessions.

I think most of the downtown casinos use H17 rule. Some of the strip casinos have good overall rules for non-counters. Last time I was there MGM, Luxor, Bellagio, Mandalay Bay and a few others had $5/$10 tables with S17, DOA, DAS, RSA and surrender. If you aren't counting, deck penetration doesn't matter. Go for slower playing tables, like hand-shuffled ones, or full of players, since you will have a negative expectation. Have fun and hit a lucky streak.

Below is a link to a recent article by Henry Tamburin about the best games for BSers. Note that there is a type-O in the section about Indiana/Illinois; it says that the game at Belterra in which the Bser actually has an advantage over the house is the 2-deck game (house edge = 0.19%), when it is actually the 1-deck game (house edge = negative 0.13%).

Isn't that a stretch of your imagination? Or, may be lush green?

If the figures quoted in the article are correct, then single deck games with unfavorable rules have less house advantage than multiple deck games with favorable rules.

Is this correct mathematically?

Yes, more decks favor the house. The difference between an infinite deck game, and a single deck game with the same rules, is about 2/3%. You can interpolate by reciprocals to esta8imet the effect for N decks : (N-1)/N * 2/3 %. For example, for N=4 our formula gives (3/ 4)*2/3 or about .5% for a four deck game.

Obviously, if the house gets an additional 0.5% advantage in a multi-deck game, they can give up some more liberal rules, and still have a better advantage than at a pitch game.

But please note that the edges we are talking about are "off-the-top" advantages. There is a cut card effect, which increases the ouse edge. It is more pronounced at double deck than at multi-deck. And inexperienced players should not think of playing a double deck game without a cut card: it is too easy to be cheated.

Finally, I do not ebleive that house edge should be the determining factor in game selection for non-counting players. I have already expressed my thoughts on this in the thread which was cross-posted on Green Chip, and I will not cross-post it here.

for non-counters.

I know you have expressed a strange belief in the past that it is not important to play "good games", a baffling statement from such a wise man..

Now if you were to say house edge was not the most important factor for a counter, I would agree.

Joe.

...has a house edge of zero. You may think I am being silly. I am not. The change machine represents exactly what happens when you get a game with no house edge and no variance. Few people enjoy change machines.

I think Mathprof's point is that without variance a negative expectation player cannot actually win. Undoubtedly this point has some validity for that class of player casinos like to pretend they cater exclusively to, the recreational players who gamble merely for the thrill of the experience for stakes that are of no consequence.
Since the possibility of a big win is part of the experience it makes some sense to seek out games with high variance, given that the money invested is seen as the price of an evening's entertainment. A low house edge is also desireable, but given this specific defined utility, by no means the only consideration.

"I think Mathprof's point is that without variance a negative expectation player cannot actually win."

I seem to recall we have been down this path before.
(The ghost of Last Year's ETF must be still haunting the place...)

"You may think I am being silly. I am not. The change machine represents exactly what happens when you get a game with no house edge and no variance. Few people enjoy change machines."

Hmm. I see you're not acquainted with the negative EV change machines that seem to haunt players everywhere. (I have found out that they sometimes forego the Negative EV part when kicked sharply.)

If you are only a BS player, make sure you know the correct BS for the game you are playing. Knowing all of the different BS is almost as difficult as learning how to count. That's why I like to concentrate on one game at a time (i.e. SD h17, 6 dk S17, etc.) Otherwise, you sit there wondering whether to split 3s. . . Those little BS mistakes can add up.

do you really think there is EVER little variance in the BJ game?

I appreciate your comments but will disagree with your argument.

Joe.

do you really think there is EVER little variance in the BJ game?

Some games have less variance than others. Given equal house edges the player trying to maxmimize the probability of a big win should seek out the game with greater variance.

About the biggest variance you have playing flat bet blackjack is slightly over 1.3. If you want high variance flatbetting VP gives you that along with only about a negative .02% leaving out the royal so it seems to me to be a better variance game than blackjack because there is much more variance. But you need to play basic to get that, something few VP players do.

At blackjack you can raise your variance with progressions but it normally would not be that much bigger than the variance flatbetting the average bet if calculated from the same base point.

that bad rules don't necessarily make for higher variance. DAS ADDS to BJ variance. On the other hand, surrender subtracts. And not being allowed to soft double subtracts.

You can't draw a conclusion about the variance of a hand of BJ from the off-the-top casino edge until you know what rules contributed to that edge. Reno rules offer a worse game (edge), but the variance is lower than Strip rules.

Don

Suppose our BS player has a choice between a heads-up single deck game or a double deck game with one empty spot (same rules). The double deck game would be the better choice. One, he will lose his money more slowly, and two, since he is not playing to make money, one must assume he is playing for enjoyment - and a table full of players is likely to be more enjoyable than an empty one.

Or how about a choice between two games - one at a large megaresort where he will be lucky to get a buffet comp for his green action, and another, with slightly inferior rules, at a smaller place where he can expect to receive free rooms, gourmet restaurant comps, etc.?

Again, the game with the higher house edge might well be the better choice.