Advantage of having fewer players at the table?

It strikes me as a common sense rule of thumb that with fewer players at the table, one could expect more blackjacks, doubling and splitting opportunities against the dealer which would increase one's advantage. Anyone have insight (preferably mathematical) into this hypothesis?

It strikes me as a common sense rule of thumb that with fewer players at the table, one could expect more blackjacks, doubling and splitting opportunities against the dealer which would increase one's advantage.

Only because you will get to play more hands per hour. There's no reason to expect more blackjacks, doubling or splitting opportunities per round.

Playing alone you also have less first hands immediately after a shuffle..which are disadvantageous to a player.

"Playing alone you also have less first hands immediately after a shuffle..which are disadvantageous to a player."

What are you talking about? This doesn't make any sense. In most shoe games the player always has a disadvantage off the top. If you have more players at the table, it does not change the disadvantage. More players use up more cards. The high counts don't last as long due to the other players eating up the "good" cards. It's always best to be heads up with the dealer. Ideally, you'd like to start the shoe with several players at the table, have them start losing as the count rises (which is common) and then they leave the table. Now, you have heads up play with a high count. This is absolutely wonderful.

I don't understand your post.

JB, what you say makes total sense to me. Thanks. Unfortunately I'm not counting just yet and trying to maximize my BS return for now.

Would it make sense to you that playing (in the extreme case) all 7 spots against the dealer would increase in general the number of BJ's, doubles and splits one sees and thereby one's advantage? Intuitively, this makes sense to me but I don't know the math.

...playing multiple spots against the dealer. Wouldn't one expect to increase one's chance of getting a BJ, split or double? And wouldn't this increase one's advantage overall? What would be the math that says this isn't valid? Not trying to be argumentative, just trying to understand.

Why does it make intuitive sense to you that playing more spots would increase your BS advantage (or said more correctly, decrease your BS disadvantage)?

I agree that if you play 7 spots per round instead of one, you are approx 7 times more likely to get at least one BJ or double opportunity, or whatever, for that round. You are also 7 times more likely to get at least one stiff. The dealer is equally likely to get a BJ regardless of the number of hands you are playing. Said another way, each spot is equally likely to get any particular combination of two starting cards.

"Would it make sense to you that playing (in the extreme case) all 7 spots against the dealer would increase in general the number of BJ's, doubles and splits one sees and thereby one's advantage? Intuitively, this makes sense to me but I don't know the math."

You get a BJ once every 21 hands on average. Therefore, if you played all 7 spots you "should" get a BJ on one of those seven spots at least once in three rounds. However, each of those 7 spots will have the same disadvantage (roughly .5% depending on the rules). Playing multiple hands would decrease your variance, but you would still have the same disadvantage on each spot. You do not have an advantage playing basic strategy as you suggest.

I would suggest that you not play until you've mastered counting if you want to make money.

For your insights AND to Coug Fan who responded similarly. I feel I've gotten comfortable playing BS accurately and consistently in the Casino environment which is perhaps Step 1. Still losing money (as expected). I'll focus on learning KO next and applying that. My wallet and I thank you.

BTW, I assume you're a counter. Are you able to make significant money card counting - enough to support yourself? If so, did it take you a long time to get to that level? I like the elegance of the idea of making a living playing BJ but don't know if it's viable.

Play with fewer players means more controlling on cut cards which is very important for shuffle tracking.

every hand is exactly the same. All cards come from the same distribution of unseen cards. A counter figures the number of unseen, at what ever point in the shoe it is. For you, all cards are effectively always unseen.

...playing multiple spots against the dealer. Wouldn't one expect to increase one's chance of getting a BJ, split or double? And wouldn't this increase one's advantage overall? What would be the math that says this isn't valid? Not trying to be argumentative, just trying to understand.

If you play two hands, naturally the odds of one or other having a BJ, split, double increases by a factor of 2, but the odds for each hand individually is the same. Since each hand has an individual bet, your advantage does not increase.

However, you can increase your expected value (advantage times bet) with the approximately the same risk by playing two hands of $15 instead of one hand of $20. Likewise, you can keep your expected value the same while decreasing your risk by playing two hands of $10.

Yes, it is possible but as Don was saying in his book: �Technical ability comes through dedication and practice. But most of all, this game takes an incredible amount of heart. It takes an iron will and a fierce determination to succeed. It takes physical stamina, nerves of steel, and an inordinate amount of discipline and self-control. Without all of the latter, the former (technical skills) are meaningless.�

Big Slick

"BTW, I assume you're a counter. Are you able to make significant money card counting - enough to support yourself? If so, did it take you a long time to get to that level? I like the elegance of the idea of making a living playing BJ but don't know if it's viable."

Previously, I didn't play professionally. I used BJ to supplement my income from a more mainstream job. Recently however, things have changed. AP has become more important to my income. I'm going back to school for training in a different profession and will be attempting to increas my BJ playing time. I do have other sources of income, but it's not enough.

There are some posters here who do play BJ for a living and make a good living. Most use some sort of team play and play other games/methods in addition to BJ and straight counting. It's very difficult to play at that level and make enough if playing solo (There are exceptions though). Elegance? It's only an idea, not a reality. Nothing elegant about this. Ok. Maybe at first, but it soon wears off and becomes work - especially if you're doing it right. It is viable, but it's very difficult.

Sign up for Greenchip and read some of the archives/POMs (It's only 2 green chips/year and well worth it.) I think there are a few posts in the archives that describe this lifestyle.

There is much for you to learn. Even if you just want to supplement your income from a "real" job. Read and learn everything you can about advantage play (don't read anything by John Patrick though).

Good luck
Johnny Bravo

It is possible to be a full time card counter and make money, but every serious pro that I know (not too many) is also constantly looking for other profitable opportunities. Casino coupons, various promotions, and money added tournaments are common in some parts of the country. Then there are always dealer mistakes like not understanding rules (i.e. surrender), or being a bit sloppy with hole cards (most profitable at games other than BJ). Not to mention standard poker (not VP), since there are alot of REALLY bad players at most tables, and certain bad beat/other jackpots are frequently positive EV. Good card counters tend to be the types of people who are observant and can identify opportunities (and figure out how to take advantage of them).

All of the above opportunities can be more effectively exploited using teams, although that requires a very high level of trust with like minded individuals.

rereading the post until it makes sense to you. It's not that difficult a concept to grasp. Really.