4 Deck Questions

Hi all. I'm new to counting and have a few questions about playing a 4 deck game. I've found lots of info on 6 deck games on the net, but almost nothing on 4 decks. Here's the game offered by my "local" casino:

4 deck, DOA, DAS, no RSA, no surrender; penetration: 2.5-3 decks, dealer dependent.

My questions for you all:

1. Is this game worth it, or should I focus on finding a better game somewhere else?

2. What bet spread is optimal for this game?

3. I started counting with Hi-Lo, but have since switched to the KO rookie count. I am assuming the IRC should be -12, but what is the proper key count for 4 deck play? I have been using -2. Is this correct?

I have a couple of other questions depending on replies to the above. Thanks in advance.

JDK

1. Is this game worth it, or should I focus on finding a better game somewhere else?

It depends on what "worth it" means. This is not a good game by most standards. You don't say whether it is an S17 game or an H17 game. I will assume it is an S17 game, that is, a game where the dealer stands on all 17's, including soft 17. Based on a sim from Norm Wattenberger's CVCX software, this game penetrated to one deck, where 75% of the cards are dealt, earns 1.77 units per one hundred hands played, with a per hand SD of 3.78 per hand, using a 1-8 spread as described below. A 1-12 spread has an EV of 2.89 units per hour and a per hand SD of 5.00. This is using the KO Preferred style of play, which I would strongly recommend over KO Rookie.

2. What bet spread is optimal for this game?

If you are using a 1-8 spread, try betting 1 unit at -2 or less, two units at -1, 3 units at 0, 6 units at +1 and 8 units at +2 or greater. If you are using a 1-12 spread, bet 1 unit at -2 or less, 2 units at -1, 4 units at 0, 6 units at +1, 8 units at +2, 11 units at +3 and 12 units at +4 or greater.

3. I started counting with Hi-Lo, but have since switched to the KO rookie count. I am assuming the IRC should be -12, but what is the proper key count for 4 deck play? I have been using -2. Is this correct?

As noted above, you should move on to the KO Preferred system. It is not a big stretch, since there are only a few strategy plays that you need to memorize. Using an IRC of -12, which is what you wish to do if you want to stick to the strategy indices in the book, then your Key Count is -1 and your pivot is still +4. This is based on a post made by Ken Fuchs on T-Hopper's website back in December of 1997. If you are using the KO Preferred, you would eliminate Category C plays altogether, just as you would in six- or eight-deck games.

If the game penetration is less than 75%, it should be avoided altogether, unless you can wong in and out with ease.

4 deck, DOA, DAS, no RSA, no surrender; penetration: 2.5-3 decks, dealer dependent.

1. Is this game worth it, or should I focus on finding a better game somewhere else?

2. What bet spread is optimal for this game?

the difference between 2.5 dealt and 3 dealt out of 4 decks is significant. 2.5 is not a very good game. 3 is. But you'd need more than a 1-8 spread wonging this game, to make it worthwhile. I'm basing this on playing around with the Blackjack Risk Manager program, keeping the SCORE at 50 and the win/100 hands at $50.

The main point of most points on this board tend to focus on the math behind this game and Bootlegger/Fine Tuner have done their usual marquee jobs of sizing it up for this 4D game.

I sometimes like to suggest the less obvious intangibles that one might want to consider for a game like this. Norm's software clearly show the advantage of the more highly-penetrated game in terms of both EV and Standard Error but there are playing-environment realities that often lead a guy to choose the lesser game, particularly if one has a solid bankroll that'll allow him to equalize the dollar-win with higher bets and worry less about the broader, bell-shaped curve of the lesser game.

The realities of this game are that the good players tend to flock to the best games. In literally every geography that I play, the most heat is encountered in those venues because they're very queued up for the numerous counters that zero in on them. Oftentimes, anything more than an 8x1 spread without significant, EV hammering camo is going to draw a crowd of critters.

A big part of my itinerary involves outsized visits to the 3rd or 4th best shop in the neighborhood that's typically a Double-deck game that penetrates .9 instead of the .7 next door and maybe prohibits DAS and softies. What I'll usually find is a friendly staff with dinner waiting and tolerance for spreads upwards of 20x1 with light camo and no heat... they simply don't see more than just the stray, mis-guided counter around there and figure that 1 or 2 a year just isn't going to hurt their hold much.

Anyway, just my 2-cents that there's more to this racket than the math.

Best for the holidays, gentlemen!!

Spokanimal

Oops, the game is S17. Sorry I omitted that info. The 1-8 spread you both described is the maximum I can go to due to table min-max bets. 1-12 is unobtainable. As for wonging, it is possible during the right time of day (usually after midnight). However, the rapidly begin closing tables when it starts to slow down, limiting the overall amount of time I can spend on that strategy.

Some more questions:

1. I will use the spread as suggested by Bootlegger on my next trip to the casino. Previously I have used only a 1-5 spread. Using the more aggressive spread, will I need any cover to continue to play this game? What is the maximum spread one could employ on a 4 deck game to avoid being detected?

2. I don't own the KO book to read about the system in detail. I have been considering buying it, but most of the info I find on the net pertains to Hi-Lo. Would I be better off purchasing Professional Blackjack and switching to Hi-Lo, or should I go ahead and purchase the KO book and stick with what I already know? Other than the author's site, are there any sites on the net pertaining to more in-depth KO analysis?

3. Final question: What is the maximum number of times I should go to my local casino per month in order to avoid heat? Or as a red chip player, is heat a non-issue at my level? Due to its proximety to my home, I would like to play there as long as possible.

Thanks for the help guys,
JDK

If I were you, I would buy KO Blackjack and learn some details about the system you already know. KO and Hi-lo are approx equivalent in power, but KO is easier for most players (no true count conversion).
Later on, get Professional BJ for a much more detailed and wide-ranging discussion of just about everything you will deal with when playing blackjack - many other issues are discussed besides simply counting cards.

Just my thoughts,

AB