21 players MUST aggresively respond to preserve game

I have played many years and have seen the game destroyed to the point of it being a meaningless charade. The conditons for very high limit players are more comfortable in an Iraq prison. WE MUST stop whining and take action. WE CAN EQUALLY SHUT THEM DOWN. If we are not allowed to play, than neither can they! What do I suggest? We must let the public know of the casino doubletalk that "blackjack is beatable" while they profit from this "mirage" by barring all but losers. While it is profitable, on the way to profit is an incredible amount of treachery, deceit, and all kinds of trouble from casinos. I suggest we form a unified group or association (Las Vegas Players Association.com or similar if that name is already used) and as a publicly advertised website telling the public that Las Vegas is dead when it comes to the illusion of yesteryear. We could mention on that website casino by casino comments and player statements about what has occurred to them. When there is a casino which operates in the spirit or real gaming we can mention that too. Only through widespread exposure of the truth on an easily accessible basis like a website and billboard and radio advertsing of our website will we finally fight back effectively. Take action or keep whining.

...remember, nobody cares if WE play. We have to ally ourselves with the ploppies. How well do we understand them? How do we reach out to them?

Problem is, I suspect that most ploppies don't really understand why they play. Look at slot machines for example; its not much more than rat behavior. People play because of the power of an intermittent reinforcement paradigm. Nevertheless, the casinos seem to think that these guys respond to reason on at least some rudimentary level; otherwise, every casino in town wouldn't be advertising "the loosest slots."

Near as I can tell, ploppies like backjack for three reasons:
1. It's more interactive than slots, but not as complicated as poker.
2. It's social, lots of high fives and stuff.
3. Occasionally you win a lot of money. And even if you don't, you get to play a long time and get lots of free drinks before you run out of money.

Unfortunately, ploppies don't really care if they are playing 6:5 bj, CSM's, 8-deck shoes, or juiced decks; they think that each of those games meets all three criteria. As a matter of fact, however, 6:5 BJ and Spanish 21 will reduce their playing time, and reduce the likelihood of a decent payout, even if they are playing with random abandon. I think they will listen to this message. By the same token, however, it is going to be a lot harder to get through to them about CSM machines and 8-deck games; if we press those issues, we run the risk of losing credibility, especially if the casinos counter with an attack on our credibility.

I would proffer that we should choose our battles carefully. I vote for an all-out information focus on 6:5 BJ, as other posters have advocated. If we can build credibility in this area, then we can start talking about other unfair casino practices with more authority.

One great challenge, and one that we are ill-prepared to deal with, is the need to convince the casinos to take their own side in this argument. This is not the first time the casinos have tightened down on blackjack rules, to their own detriment.

there is no gamble left in Las Vegas, and that its turned into a sewer of dirtbags and fleecing. It is no longer the Vegas of old. We must make it public and the subject of all gambling conversations nationwide. Once the general public knows that they will be treated like fools and have no chance in Las Vegas, their game (the casinos) is over! A catchy slogan will get their attention or a nationwide ad campaign directing everyone to a website stating that "Las Vegas is Dead." I believe we have a stronger position than they do if we act coillectively, we must stop finding reasons not to act and start aggressively pursuing educating the public. No more reasons not to act, no more excuses. Act now and let's get organized or forever forfeit your right to complain.

All card counters send me $25 per month. I will build web site that describs in detail the problems you mention. I will write and publish articles for mass consumption explaining these problems and will originize flyer distributions in Vegas.

Bert

Those fighting words may be good for our blood circulation but they amount to nothing really substantial, when all is said an' done. There's no way that the casinos' attitude can be affected in any significant manner by a concerted action of advantage players.

The "general public" that you mention doesn't even see those changes to the worse that make the headlines in esoteric publications such as CBJN : "XYZ CASINO NOW OFFERS ONLY 6:5 GAMES". The horror, you say? Bah, humbug. To the public it's a non-event and there's no way that they will ever be educated on that.

The Thorp book made the best-seller list forty years ago and that aura of a casino game being beatable attracted millions of gamblers. And that was the apex of popular wisdom about casino games, right there.

Me? I believe that market forces are delaying the deterioration of the game. The game would've deteriorated faster if it weren't for competition. Competition keeps the game still beatable (even for straight counters) in Vegas. Look elsewhere, in the U.S. or abroad : if there are just 3 or 4 casinos in an area, you can generally expect a worse-than-average game; if there's just one casino, you can generally expect a bad game.

..And the public keeps coming.

We counters invest money to open a casino with best BJ rules and pen etc. Investers are hired as PCs based on skill and time flexibility. Good counters are allowed to purchase preferred/discount stock shares and actions are not welcome. Other stores will lose many BJ patrons to us and eventually they have to loose up their games.

ploppies dont care ehat the rules sre.quit complaining and go play whats available.ive lost a shit load of good games since 98 but im still playing.

We must let the public know of the casino doubletalk that "blackjack is beatable" while they profit from this "mirage" by barring all but losers.

I just don't think this is reallistic. The people cares very little, or is unable to make its opinions felt, on a range of issues such as world famine, crime and drug abuse (or insert your own pet issue). It is difficult to see how public sentiment on something so apparently frivolous as casino gambling could be mobilized or would change anything.

complaining by the "advantage player" community only solidifies one image in the casino managements' mind: they must be doing something right.

Bitching, moaning, groaning and complaining by the "public at large" solidifies a different image in their mind: they must be doing something wrong.

Anybody hear of reverse psychology?

rwp

"I just don't think this is real(l)istic. The people care(s) very little, or are (is) unable to make their (its) opinions felt, on a range of issues such as world famine, crime and drug abuse."

World drug abuse sounds like too much...

"It is difficult to see how public sentiment on something so apparently frivolous as casino gambling could be mobilized or would change anything."

Hmm. I don't know. "Public sentiment" has been known to "mobilize" on very "frivolous" affairs quite often. When the streets are empty on a weekday, what are the chances that people are glued in front of their TVs to watch the President's address or the last episode of Frasier? (And why, pray, should Frasier be considered as more frivolous than Bush Jr?? The people are right once again.)

In the past I really looked forward to visiting Las Vegas. But now there are casinos all around me offering better games than I can find in Vegas. Atlantic City sucks as far as Blackjack is concerned also. It is apparent that the major casinos could care less about their table games. The slot machines are King! Until this changes, why should they offer good blackjack? There are plenty of ploppies waiting in line to play their CSM's and 8 deck shoes.

Enjoy your playable games while they last. Corporate casino greed will kill them as soon as they can get away with it.

And why, pray, should Bush Jr be considered as more frivolous than Frasier??

Well, I suppose that one does tend to elicit more laughs than the other. But insofar as quality entertainment is concerned, there is but one choice.

Cheers!
Syph

When the streets are empty on a weekday, what are the chances that people are glued in front of their TVs to watch the President's address or the last episode of Frasier?

Watching TV=mobilization?

One practical option that could have some reasonable effect is to produce a high quality flyer briefly explaining how 6:5 BJ and the other bad rules effect your chances of winning. Distribute them on the strip and downtown. There wouldn't be much of a direct effect but I think you could have a considerable ripple effect throughout the ploppy world. You may even get some news coverage out of it.

How about advertising a free seminar at the bottom of the flyer that offers to teach how to play the game properly and increase your chances of winning? Of course at the end of your free seminar on basic strategy there would be a plug for your advantage play class. For a nominal fee, of course. ;-)