20 questions from Gamblers Anonymous

The wife thinks I have a problem and asked me to answer a few questions: http://www.gamblersanonymous.org/20questions.html

According to GA, "Most compulsive gamblers will answer yes to at least seven of these questions."

1. Did you ever lose time from work or school due to gambling?
2. Has gambling ever made your home life unhappy?
3. Did gambling affect your reputation?
4. Have you ever felt remorse after gambling?
5. Did you ever gamble to get money with which to pay debts or otherwise solve financial difficulties?
6. Did gambling cause a decrease in your ambition or efficiency?
7. After losing did you feel you must return as soon as possible and win back your losses?
8. After a win did you have a strong urge to return and win more?
9. Did you often gamble until your last dollar was gone?
10. Did you ever borrow to finance your gambling?
11. Have you ever sold anything to finance gambling?
12. Were you reluctant to use "gambling money" for normal expenditures?
13. Did gambling make you careless of the welfare of yourself or your family?
14. Did you ever gamble longer than you had planned?
15. Have you ever gambled to escape worry or trouble?
16. Have you ever committed, or considered committing, an illegal act to finance gambling?
17. Did gambling cause you to have difficulty in sleeping?
18. Do arguments, disappointments or frustrations create within you an urge to gamble?
19. Did you ever have an urge to celebrate any good fortune by a few hours of gambling?
20. Have you ever considered self destruction or suicide as a result of your gambling?

Note that the key word here is "Most". Just because you answer yes to seven of the questions, does not immediately indicate that you are a compulsive gambler. Some of those are pretty vague anyway. In my opinion, if you could answer yes to 7,8, or 12 I would worry a little. Answer yes to 5, 10, 11, or 13 and I would worry a lot. Answer yes to 16 or 20... Get off your d_mn computer and call GA IMMEDIATELY!

Personally, I enjoy gambling and have done so for many years. I'm sure I gamble much more than the average person and I also gamble on-line. In fact, I'm headed to Vegas tomorrow! I usually go to Vegas about once a year. I earn good money at a regular job (6 digits combined household) but I still only wager $5 to $20 per hand in a casino and have no desire to bet more. I don't feel that I am what you would call a compulsive gambler and yet, I could answer yes to more than seven of those questions just due to the fact that I gamble frequently. I'll give you my answers and comments on the questions below:

According to GA, "Most compulsive gamblers will answer yes to at least seven of these questions."

1. Did you ever lose time from work or school due to gambling?
Yes - I left work early to meet my wife for dinner at the local casino and wanted to put some time in at the tables in order to get a comped meal.

2. Has gambling ever made your home life unhappy?
Yes - Who the heck is happy after they've experienced some negative variance and have less money than they did before? Of course I'm pretty happy when the positive variance comes along. What's the point otherwise? Have I ever come home, kicked the dog, and beat the wife because of it? No.

3. Did gambling affect your reputation?
Yes - I've talked about gambling with friends and coworkers many times. I'm sure that has effected my "reputation" in one way or the other.

4. Have you ever felt remorse after gambling?
Yes - Duh! Who doesn't wish they had left earlier after being way up and then dropping back down?

5. Did you ever gamble to get money with which to pay debts or otherwise solve financial difficulties?
No.

6. Did gambling cause a decrease in your ambition or efficiency?
Yes - I think. Not sure what that means but I guess a road trip to Vegas isn't very "efficient". Like being ambitious and efficient is all that matters in life.

7. After losing did you feel you must return as soon as possible and win back your losses?
Yes - I suppose when I first started gambling and hadn't taken the time to learn about what I was risking my hard earned money on, I had done this. I know better now.

8. After a win did you have a strong urge to return and win more?
Yes - See #7

9. Did you often gamble until your last dollar was gone?
Yes - A few times I've had as much as I wanted to spend in my pocket and that's exactly what I spent.

10. Did you ever borrow to finance your gambling?
No.

11. Have you ever sold anything to finance gambling?
No.

12. Were you reluctant to use "gambling money" for normal expenditures?
Yes - Sort of. I've withdrawn cash to take with me to Vegas and have used a credit card for some normal expenditures because I didn't want to have to get more cash again.

13. Did gambling make you careless of the welfare of yourself or your family?
No.

14. Did you ever gamble longer than you had planned?
Yes - Most anyone who has ever gambled has done this. Why do you think there are no clocks in a casino?

15. Have you ever gambled to escape worry or trouble?
Yes - Sort of again. I've gone to a casino for this reason. I've also gone to a video arcade or gone on long drives as well.

16. Have you ever committed, or considered committing, an illegal act to finance gambling?
No.

17. Did gambling cause you to have difficulty in sleeping?
Yes - Plenty of times I've had a hard time getting to sleep after a big loss or a big win. Adrenaline does that. I would worry more if a big loss DIDN'T effect sleep.

18. Do arguments, disappointments or frustrations create within you an urge to gamble?
No - I can't really relate to that one. I gamble when I want to.

19. Did you ever have an urge to celebrate any good fortune by a few hours of gambling?
No - Seems like a kinda boring way to celebrate. Never really had the opportunity to celebrate anything with friends that also gamble.

20. Have you ever considered self destruction or suicide as a result of your gambling?
No - Time to put GA on the speed dial at that point.

That's it! 12 yes and 8 no. Am I a compulsive gambler? I'm sure by some peoples definition, I am. I don't think so. There's no way in h_ll I'm going to be hitting the casino in hopes of making enough money to make the mortgage payment or anything.

In conclusion (yes, finally), I have not seen or heard of a compulsive gambler that is willing to take the time and effort to learn about how gambling works. If you know, or are willing to learn how the house edge works, what variance is, how basic strategy works, and even how to count cards, it is unlikely that you will be a compulsive gambler because you will simply know too much about gambling to allow that to happen. The few people I do know who are, or are in danger of becoming compulsive gamblers, think that they know more than any of the gambling experts and that the experts wouldn't be writing books or anything if they really knew as much as them. They just have to sit at the right table, with the right dealer, and the right person at third base, and they will make loads of money. This is dangerous.

Finally (yes, again), give us some more information about your habits and I'm sure the people here will be willing to give their opinion on where you stand as a compulsive gambler. Nobody wants to see people ruin their lives due to gambling. Not even the casinos which would rather have a reputation as a source of entertainment than a source of ruining lives.

Hey, I got a score of ZERO/20.

I only scored a 6 but some of those things were just silly. Of course I keep my gambling money seperate from food money, that's just good money management, it doesn't mean I'm a compulsive gambler. If your wife things that you are a compulsive gambler perhaps you should invite her to learn a bit of the advantage play process. If you plan for it and practice a bit is it really compulsive to gamble? If it is then compulsive doesn't mean what I think it means and I'm very confused.

Your wife might just be concerned about you because she had a family member who was a compulsive gambler who ended up drugged out and in prison, who knows. Most likely she isn't trying to rain on your parade but is concerned, talk to her about it, if she's willing to listen teach her a bit. If she understands what you do for a hobby (or business) then your problem should resolve itself. Good luck.

1. Do you like to know things others don't?
2. Do you like power over the powerful?
3. Do you enjoy having the feeling of getting away with something?
4. Do you have the patience to develop a skill that will be with you for years?
5. Can you put up with people thinking you are crazy?
6. Do you know what Variance means?
7. Can you spot a ploppy from 20 yards away?
8. Do you scratch your head and wonder why people that play state run lotteries when the house edge is so high?
9. When shopping for groceries do you break down items into the percentage of your food bankroll for the month?
10. You know the best places to get $2 steak or better yet rarely pay for a meal at a casino?

More questions are welcome as I'm sure I missed some good ones.

I know these twelve step programs do help those that are in trouble. They are certainly a necessity in our modern world. But I think some can be accused of empire building or at least projecting their weaknesses on the whole population.

I did not get a perfect score as I joked above but I did get a high enough score that they would consider me a good candidate. I answered a lot of my questions similar to Joe BJ and I did answer yes to some of his hit list questions. Number 5: Last summer I bought a camper for the family on credit anticipating paying it off over one or two years. I decided that with a little work online I could help pay off my debt with my wins. Later in the summer I won a fair bit of money playing in Vegas (coupons, counting and a little craps) so I paid off the whole thing at once. Here, I did gamble to pay off debt but as you can see not in problematic way that GA assumes. Number 10: I gamble online. I have often ran up my online credit card higher than I would ever take my personal credit card. This credit card is a tool and I use it so, but yes I do borrow money to gamble. Number 16: If you are an American you are committing an illegal act every time you gamble on the internet. Online gamblers do this to raise more money to gamble online.

I hit positive answers on a lot of questions and I'm sure that some pro's or near pro's could answer up to 15 or 16. So I decided to check out some other 12-step programs. I have discovered that I am an alcoholic and a shopaholic. I only drink once every few weeks with the boys but I sure can answer yes to a fair number of questions. Shopping? I hate shopping! But if you ever experience anxiety, remorse or a high when you buy a new car or bike or camper you surpass that four question threshold. I didn't look, but I assume I am a compulsive eater and a sex addict too and who knows what else.

These organizations are managed by people who had or have these problems. Many of them don't really believe you can drink or gamble and not have a problem with it. They project their own weaknesses on us all. The other more sinister possibility is empire building. The more people they can convince that they have a problem the more funding and recognition their organization might get. I remember when I was a kid in high school the requirements for being an alcoholic were much higher than today. Lower standards equals more customers. As I stated at the beginning of this rant these programs offer hope to those in real trouble and for that I applaud them. But, these little tests to see if have a problem are silly. If you are a participant in an activity and you have human feelings and perhaps some excesses you are going to fail these types of tests. Use with caution! And never let your mother see your score, it can only cause trouble.

Hip Hop

therefore I can only answer 7 and 8.

I am probably in the minority on this, but I believe advantage players are gamblers. My dictionary defines "gamble" like this:

1. To play at a game of chance for money or other stakes. 2. To stake or risk something of value on the outcome of something involving chance. 3. To lose by betting. 4. To wager or risk something of value. 5. Any matter or thing involving risk.

We meet all of those definitions. It's just that our gamble is less risky than that of most other gamblers, but I don't know any advantage player who is playing to a 0% ROR.

Every single hand of BlackJack is a gamble no matter how high the count is.

I view BJ card counting as investment rather than gambling as we are getting positive return which differenciate investment from gambling

In my opinion BJTraveller, you're right, advantage play is not gambling. While it is true that none of us are playing with a 0% ROR, similarly we do not experience a 0% ROR for, say, investing in shares (Suppose all the companies in your portfolio went bankrupt; unlikely, but not impossible.)

Advantage players do expect a positive outcome in the long run, and with a large enough bankroll the ROR can be reduced to a negligable amount. I see gambling as being a short-term shot at making money; approaching advantage play with the same attitude isn't going to do you any favours because it is designed to profit over the long term.

Does it not take two to gamble? After all, gambling is making a wager or taking a risk. In order to make a wager, there must be two parties. If I am playing a slot machine, I am gambling with the casino. The casino is gambling with me. If I am playing blackjack, ditto. When I pay my insurance premiums each month, I am gambling that I will die before my policy is paid in full (that's a helluva thing, now isn't it?), while the insurance company is gambling that I won't die before my time. We are both gambling, but the insurance company has the better of it. In my mind, the advantage player is like the casino or the insurance company. Sure, he has the better of it, but he is still the other party in the wager. There is a chance he will lose. He is gambling.

As I said, I am in the minority on this, but when I hear AP's saying they are not gambling, it reminds me of the preferred term the casinos use for gambling. They don't call it that either. They say "gaming." It's just an attempt to remove the unsavory connotations that go with the word "gambling." Let's not fool ourselves the way the casinos are trying to fool their patrons.

I suppose it depends on how one would define gambling. You make a good point in saying how just because we are playing with an advantage we are still gambling, as is the casino against hapless players.

Paying insurance premiums are indeed a form of gambling, with long odds to compensate you for potential financially crippling loss. This I see more as a way to smooth out the bumps in life by providing assurance that if your house burns down you will not become destitute.

That being said, advantage play is work, counting cards etc takes skill and dedication, unlike the average gambler, and even though there is a large element of risk present, the fact that we have a long-term advantage leads me to believe that advantage players aren't gamblers. I don't consider the casino to be gambling by offering games where they have a house edge, because over the long run (aside from a massive statistical anomoly) they will make a profit. The same applies for insurance companies.

While it is true that the casinos call gambling "gaming" it's just a marketing ploy to attract more visitors, as you pointed out.

It does all come down to how you define the word. I see where you are coming from and I respect your opinion that advantage players are gambling. However I think your definition of the word encompasses too much of what would be better classed as "acceptable risk". Advantage players aren't wildly throwing their money down in the hope of walking out with a profit at the end of the night (This is how I would define gambling), they put in the hours and wait for the numbers to make them money.

It's really just a matter of semantics. I think we are in general agreement. I do know advantage players who are also problem gamblers and I think they tend to fool themselves with the belief that it isn't gambling, it's an investment. The problem is, these "advantage players" will often overbet their bankrolls, make bad choices in the quality of the games they play, and play games at a disadvantage, chalking it up to cover. What they want is the action and they disguise their craving by saying, "after all, I'm an advantage player and that isn't gambling."

I don't think most AP's fall in that category, but they do exist.

Your definition above (especially #2) is broad enough to include everything from advantage play, to investing in stocks, to investing in US T-bills (hey, the government could go bankrupt... you never know!), to ... well, you get the idea. (Even holding cash is a gamble: We don't have a gold standard anymore.)

Obviously there is a grey area, and no "right" place to draw a line between what I would call gambling versus investing. However, even with positive ev, overbetting your bankroll should (IMO) put one in the class of "gambler."

Like the famous quote about pornography, I don't know how to define gambling, but I know it when I see it.

Lefty

gamble AND invest... When you buy stocks, there will be sellers. It is very important approaching card counting from standpoint of investment and use the principle of diversification (ie not over betting). If you think you are gambling and use the principle of gambling on card counting... guess what? You are gambling and you are not a good card counter.

the casino is gambling with me. Big difference.