Wonging

What percentage of AP'S simply "Wong" when the count goes negative
compared to other players who play the whole deck(s) thru and bet the
smallest amount possible in negative situations?

Getting through negative decks is why I studied and practiced so long...I take great pride in playing tough and not getting into a negative frame of mind when the shoe is negative. Hitting out and getting push after push is a good thing in a negative Shoe... Of course wonging is better..... but is it always doable?

I did this through 1 shoe in ac the other day......was ahead like 1 unit...... then the next deck got hot... I got ahead 20 units... and got up and left a +18 Shoe 5 decks left with 24 aces left.......

this might sound nuts to most of you, but my odd approach is working ok for me

I don't have a great deal of experience, but the one
point I have had successfully drilled into my head
from this site and through all of my readings is that
you never leave a high count shoe. I sometime have to
wait an hour before finally hitting that big shoe and
I pound it to make up for all the waiting hands I had
to play through the previous hour.

I wong out of negative shoes and stroll back just in
time for the next shoe. This past week I had
concluded a 4 day trip that had me down a little over
50 units. On my way back to my room I passed an empty
table and jumped in for one last go. It turned out to
be the best shoe of the trip and I played it until it
went neutral toward the end. I couldn't believe it
but I just couldn't lose a hand. I was spreading 1-12
and most of the shoe had me putting out max bets. I
finished the shoe up 104 units which put me back into
positive territory.

Leaving a shoe for no good reason other tnan you "won
enough" makes no sense to me and sounds like voodoo.

Also you mentioned that you won and there were still 5
decks left which indicated you were probably playing 8
deck shoes. There are plenty of good 6 deck games in
AC and I recommend you seek them out. CBJN is a good
place to start finding the best ones, but you will
need to do your own DD because the stores don't always
match the listings.

I agree on your point is it doable? It may not always be. That is the problem. If you get up, move around, and backcount it will
probably draw heat. I guess if you Wong you have to move around from
casino to casino and spend a little time in each.

It sounds nuts to me...

You didn't mention your counting system, so +18 doesn't mean much, I guess. To a hi-lo player, it represents utopia... For hi-lo it also sounds difficult. +18 with 5 decks left means 90 extra small cards came out over the first three decks to leave that whopping +90 RC...

My current thing... if I get up 20 I leave no matter what

using Hi opt 2 count with ace side count.......

I have just started playing again... doing this for confidence building ..........and I seem to win early... so if I get to walk away with more than I started Im good.

See post below about the guy that got killed 200 units on a hot shoe

been there done that

Yes, I got killed on a shoe between +8 and +14. That doesn't mean I'm going to bet my max on lower counts or walk off every time the count goes skyward or even back off some on my max bet because of a bad experience in the recent past.

...if I get up 20 I leave no matter what

This is guaranteed to work next time it happens only if you quit playing for the rest of your life. If you play another hand 10 seconds, 10 days or 40 years later, you are subject to loosing based on the mathematical probabilities at that moment.

Why is it bad?

1. Wasting time...up to 10 minutes of flat betting table minimum when you could be on another shoe that has a better chance of turning positive. About 1 shoe in 4 with a 0 running count will turn substantially positive. Much fewer shoes (maybe 1 in 20?) rebound to substantially positive with a -10 running count. Remember, once the true count goes negative it tends to stay there, on average, for the rest of the shoe.

2. Card counters are done in as much by their small bets as their big bets. After flat betting 1x$25 for 10 minutes would betting 2x$500 look a bit strange?

3. It takes a 40-1 spread (or larger) for spreading to approach the same rough win-rate as wonging. That is a pretty big spread.

There is some mix of pure wonging and big-spreading that fits each casino in terms of heat and conditions. Sometimes you can't change tables so you just find reasons to sit out hands. If heads up at a private table you really have to get creative to avoid sitting through deep negative counts.

For confidence building,it's okay to end a session early when you're up .Actually,that's the way I played at the beginning of my career.I felt great having beaten the house even if it was just for a few hundred bucks, and I celebrated the rest of the evening.
But leaving inmidst of a hot shoe is really not wise.You give away a lot of EV.
So why don't you just finish the shoe and if you're still up 20 units or more you can then still decide to leave.
Furthermore,you ought to know that with your stop win method you're bound sooner or later to run into a big losing session that will wipe out the winnings of several previous sessions.So be prepared!

Francis Salmon

The one nice thing about playing at a no mid-shoe table is that if you can get a heads-up game, you can force a shuffle whenever you want by just standing up with your chips and walking away. Of course, you should be careful not to abuse this too much, and occasionally the pit will actually refuse to shuffle. I saw a stand-off for a full 30 minutes one time where the pit refused to shuffle even though they had 5 people waiting to play. One non-counter was sitting out and refused to bet until they shuffled the "cold" shoe. There are ways to deal with this without causing too much heat. You may need to use some creativity.

Obviously the way to get ahead is to keep moving around and play as many
positive hands per hour and set out negative count alltogether. I tend
to play the entire shoe and bet the table minimum on all neg counts.
Wonging is more productive I'm sure but takes a lot of moving around
and some fancy footwork.

I am just warming up to begin serious play later in the year.

In vegas last month 90% of my sessions were for less than 20 minutes.

I make a plan I stay with it..............

another "voodoo" thing I do is not sitting down at a table unless there are drunk moron looking people with stacks of chips in from of them.......

Bigplayer I have a question for you. How do you feel when someone wongs in on a table you are playing when the true count turns positive? How do you feel when someone at your table sits out hands in negative counts? What, if anything, do you say or do when either of these two events happen?

what happens to other people. It is not a team sport. Sure it is not good if someone wongs in and eats cards in a high count. Just deal with it. If someone sits out on eating negative cards, that's okay. You should be gone anyway. I found that I play a lot of positive hands with less other players because while the count is building, the dealer pisses off the average ploppy by not busting and then they walk off and leave a positive pack for me.

Excellent post.

If you have just as many losing as winning sessions,your confidence won't get any better.
Beginners should play long sessions in order to get a feel for the game.They don't have to worry about heat.It looks like you're afraid of bad beats but these are part of the game and no voodoo move will avoid them.
Two more thoughts:
If you play such short sessions,expenses will be more difficult to cover.
When leaving mid-shoe because of your stop loss or win barrier you have to be constantly aware of your standings and this diverts your concentration when actually you have to figure out what will be your next bet.

Francis Salmon

you sound too worried about your win/loss column and as you say you are just getting back into the game with hi/opt II. I can see where you would need some time to feel comfortable with that system. assuming you are using a decent spread and properly bankrolled you really have no control over those win/loss scenerios, fluctuations, so why not attach your confidence meter strictly on how perfectly you play your system, making the right moves, betting properly etc.. just let the win/loss column take care of itself. the only thing you can control is your stop/loss which you have a good handle on. unless I've tapped out completely I never know exactly how much I'm up or down until I leave the table.