Which Seat is Best for a card counter ???

I use KO and I am wondering which seat is best for a card counter to sit in. I like third base because I follow basic strategy. Seems like if I sit on third I take all of the hits for the table and they win but I am busted and out of the hand.

When I sit on first it seems like I get alot more naturals and twentys. Almost seems as when I sit on third everything just goes downhill but like I said I like to sit there because it drives me nuts when someone is on third who is hitting 14 with a 6 showing trying to get close to twenty-one!

When I sit on first I towards then end of my session I tend to get exhausted and slack behind keeping up with the dealer. I almost seemed overwhelmed because I am pressed on making a decsion when sitting on first whereas with third base I have that extra time.

Does anyone have any suggestions or preferences?

Thanks,
Aceduce

That depends. Most would probably say third base because you see a few more cards before play. You can also count without much head and eye movement. That's kind of tough in the middle of the table. I personally prefer next to last base because I will take less heat from others at the table for plays they don't agree with. It also gives me oportunity to count without broadcasting it to the pit. First base can be tough. If you split tens/faces on third base and dealer makes a hand because of it. Some drinks will probably bring unwanted attention your way.

I am fairly new to counting and have a lot to learn. One of the first things you need to do is dispel some of the "ploppy" or common gambler myths. You said "it drives me nuts when someone is on third who is hitting 14 with a 6 showing trying to get close to twenty-one!" It doesn't matter if that person is setting on first or third. The results over time will be the same. That person will help you as many times as he hurts you. Its natural to just remember the "hurts".

You said "I sit on third I take all of the hits for the table and they win but I am busted and out of the hand" Once again, that is just your perception or maybe what happened in an isolated session or two.

I would guess you've been learning to count from the koblackjack web site. If your going to invest serious money and time on this, you might consider some of the books to the left under the "Online Catalog" There is a book on KO and many good books by Stanford Wong. Hope this helps.
Okie

This has appeared before in these pages, but probably worth repeating once in awhile for newcomers:

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THREE COMMON BLACKJACK VOODOO SUPERSTITIONS

Voodoo Superstition #1 � �You shouldn�t play with bad players at the table.�

Whether they play well or badly, it has no long-term effect on your results. Sure, a stupid play made by a stupid player may sometimes affect the immediate hand being played. But, in the long run, bad players have no effect on your results. To think otherwise is to succumb to voodoo superstition.

For most new players, playing at reasonably low stakes with no �cover� needs, it�s important to have as few other players at the table as possible, to maximize your hands per hour. Preferably, of course, there are NO other players at your table.

However, whether another player is a good one or a bad one (and the bad ones outnumber the good ones by at least a 100-1 margin!) should make no difference to you. You shouldn�t even be aware of how other players play, except to count their cards. Tough to do at first, but eventually, it will become automatic

Voodoo Superstition #2 � �The player at third base (or any other player) �took the dealer�s bust card.��

Again, voodoo superstition. This is actually an extension of Voodoo Superstition #1. The play of the player at third base has no greater effect than the play of any other player at the table. It�s just more obvious, since it�s easier to deduce what card the dealer �would have gotten� or �wouldn�t have gotten� if the third base player had played the hand differently. But, again, in the long run, the play of the third base player, or any other player, has no effect on your results.

Voodoo Superstition #3 � �A counter should always sit at third base.�

When counting, it�s slightly helpful to sit at or near third base, if you�re forced to play with other players at the table, so you can see more cards before it�s your turn to make a playing decision.

However, it�s not always possible, and has the negative aspect that pit personnel frequently think, �Counters always sit at third base,� and therefore may scrutinize your play more than they might otherwise.

The long-term effect of where you sit at the table on your Expected Win Rate is negligible.

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In micwes470's specific situation, he is having trouble counting quickly, and therefore may not even be playing a winning game yet.

PRACTICE, PRACTICE, PRACTICE at the kitchen table, or with some of the excellent software available, would undoubtedly be helpful before spending more time in casinos.

Good luck.

okie thanks so much I appreciate it!

micwes470

I have been practicing at least 1-2 hours everyday with Knockout Blackjack Software. I just think my playing sessions might be to long in between breaks.

Thanks for the suggestions I appreciate it. Talk to you later

micwes470

............at the best table!

You shouldn't be too concerned about seating position, although first base may be a little too fast for you, as you're under the gun every hand. You should be selecting a seat at a table that has good playing conditions.

ie. not too many players, the ones that are there play reasonably fast, (that is all you should worry about, not HOW they play), decent penetration (in comparison with other table). There is often a difference between dealers in this regard. Also if two tables are similar select the one that has some players throwing around some bigger money or senselessy variating their bets so that you're not the big player on the table unless you're good in the spotlight.

If I had to choose, I'd say to the right of third base. You're not the 'anchor man' whose every decision will be loudly cried, you have plenty of time to think & you can easily see all the cards without appearing too obvious. Having said that you should learn to be comfortable in any seat.

Open game (all cards face up), First Base. You can see all the player cards AND the discard pile without head movement.

Closed game (player cards dealt down), Third Base. Since most players are right handed, you can see and count their hands before you have to make your playing decisions.

Open game (all cards face up), First Base. You can see all the player cards AND the discard pile without head movement.

At first base, I might not have time to count all the cards and make the true count adjustment before making my play decision.

Closed game (player cards dealt down), Third Base. Since most players are right handed, you can see and count their hands before you have to make your playing decisions.

At third base, I have to wait for the dealer to show all the other hands before I make my bet. This might look suspicious.

> Open game (all cards face up), First Base. You can see all the
> player cards AND the discard pile without head movement.
>
> At first base, I might not have time to count all the cards and
> make the true count adjustment before making my play decision.

Then you need to learn how to count faster. If you can't count a deck dealt 2 cards at a time down from zero to zero in 30 seconds, you're not counting fast enough. Personally, I count 'em as they're dealt (counting 2 card hands as they're completed; so the counting actually starts as the 2nd cards are dealt, then the dealer's upcard); so my RC is current at decision time. It only takes a fraction of a second to make the TC adjustment; and the delay is no longer, and usually shorter, than a typical player deciding what to do with the hand.

> Closed game (player cards dealt down), Third Base. Since most
> players are right handed, you can see and count their hands before
> you have to make your playing decisions.
>
> At third base, I have to wait for the dealer to show all the other
> hands before I make my bet. This might look suspicious.

What?!!! At third base, you can see a right handed player's hand when he picks it up to look at it himself. He'll virtually always pick it up with his right hand, and since you're sitting to his left you can always see the initial two cards for most players. However, when there are either left-handed or really paranoid players at the table who hide thier cards as they would hide a poker hand, this does involve some extra mental work remembering which hands you weren't able to see initially. Those you have to count when they are either turned up in cases of BJs, doubles, splits or breaks or when the bets are settled.

Remember, this is about seeing as many cards as possible before you make your PLAYING decision; not about your betting decision. The timing for betting decisions is no different from sitting anywhere else at the table, as you never have the complete count until after the *dealer* completes his hand.

FACE UP: Just count your hand and the dealer's hand,then make your playing decision, if you feel you don't have enought time to count them all first. It doesn't make a hell of a lot of difference in your playing decision in any face-up game I know of, since they are all 6 or 8 decks.

FACE DOWN; You need to make some assumptions about the player's hands based on how they played them. If they stood on two cards with no hits, assume a count of at least -1 for that hand, if the dealer had a high card face-up. If they took 2 or more hit cards, then assume they have a count of +2 (hi-lo). You get the idea. If the table is full of dipshits who stand on 6 or whatever no matter what the dealer shows, this gets more complicated.

AB

When I sit at third base on pitch games, I am very rarely able to see the initial two cards of those sitting at first base and the spot next to it (excluding busted hands, double downs, and splits). Also, when players in those positions double down or split aces (no RSA games only), one cannot see the additional cards they are dealt until the dealer untucks them when determining if the players are to be paid. Too often I have found myself looking quite suspicious when sitting at third base and waiting to place my bet for the next round until I see the first baseman's tucked cards. IMHO, the gain in EV from seeing as many cards as possible for playing decisions by sitting at third base in pitch games is more than offset by the potential loss in longevity.

micwes470 wrote: When I sit on first it seems like I get alot more naturals and twentys.

This is non-sense, and actually believed by lots of unsophisticated counters. In particular, beginners (and sometimes intermediate) counters think that in high counts that 1st base is more likely to pull the high cards as the count is diluted by the time it gets down to 3rd. Micswes470 seems to subscribe to this theory based on what he has written.

All seats at the table will get all the same hands with all the same frequencies at all true counts. Naturals & twenties are no more likely to fall on first base.

#5 - Adding/Removing hands:

"Can you sit this one out, the table's doing well"

"I gotta play two hands now since now you've dropped to 1"

"I'm gonna add in a hand to try to change things up"

...and we're not trying to maximize the positive duration and eat cards in the negative

This is nonsense, and actually believed by lots of unsophisticated counters. In particular, beginners (and sometimes intermediate) counters think that in high counts that 1st base is more likely to pull the high cards ...

Of all the voodoo and ploppy superstitions I've heard, this one is new to me. I'd never heard it before, and I missed the implication in micwes470's post that he may actually believe it.

Obviously, it's nonsense. Thanks, DD', for pointing it out.

"I gotta play two hands now since now you've dropped to 1"

"I'm gonna add in a hand to try to change things up"

Fits right in with the magical "flow of the cards" --- or, as I heard a ploppy say recently, when criticizing a fellow ploppy for sitting out a hand while ogling a CW, that Ploppy #1 "changed the rotation of the cards."

I suppose the "rotation" is some special type of "flow."

:>)

I prefer the seat next to third base for reasons that have been already stated...Also, when I sit at third base, sometimes the dealer gives the player at first base a third card and it busts the player...The dealer's right arm sometimes blocks my view and the cards are swept up and put into the discard tray before I see if it was high or low...Being 6 ft. 2, I like the extra room at position 5, not as much as at third base [position 6], but good enough.

Best place to sit is where you can catch a glimpse of the hole card. ;-)

ETF