Wheel of Madness

While in Vegas for my brother's 21st birthday we played blackjack of course and there was one table that we played that had a wierd side bet. There is this wheel mounted to the table and if you hit a blackjack with a sidebet of $1 out then you get to spin the wheel (it's electronic). I'm pretty sure this game was dealt out of a shoe but has anyone seen this bet on a one or two deck game? I could see how this game could be totally abused by counting if offered on a single deck game by using hi-optI and a side count of aces which is what I'm working on.

I see two problems with this though, first is finding a table with this and single deck for the sake of reasoning I'll say this exhists but please let me know if it doesn't. Secondly someone who occasionally makes the side bet and hits it more often than not will surely raise suspicion. Do most ploppies that play this option play it religiously or do they randomly place the side bets. By the way I'm not sure if it's called Wheel of Madness but that seems to be what I remember. Also I was the only one that wasn't making the side bet at the table and I only got one blackjack while my brother who loved that stupid wheel got about 7 blackjacks in the same session.

In what casino did you see this game?

If you played it, don't you even know the number of decks used?

Why do you think this side bet could be abused by a random spin of a wheel?

Why do you call it a "stupid wheel" if your brother got 7 blackjacks while betting it?

AB

"Wheel of Madness" is a sucker bet.

The "Wheel of Madness" is not a random spinning mechanical wheel, but electronic like the spin on the "Wheel of Fortune" slot machine, where the max payoff very rarely shows up, certainly not in proportion to the number of spaces on the wheel. It's common at low-end Las Vegas and Laughlin casinos.

I seem to recall the Colorado Belle in Laughlin has it on a single-deck game, but it's still not worthwhile. The games with this wheel are slowed down so much by ploppies, just like a Royal Match table, that they become unplayable.

I suppose there may be some point at which it may be a +EV bet, but the count would have to be so high you may not see it in a lifetime of playing.

Forget about it.

Fitzgeralds have the wheel of madness - I think it is DD at the Fitz. I don't know how many decks at the Sahara - but I remember it being on the $1 table. Like LVBear, I believe it is a sucker bet, but there may be a way to exploit it. Good luck.

Andy

Well this wasn't so long ago when I didn't know that much about blackjack and about 5 of us were traveling around having fun. I wasn't counting or anything and I didn't know about penetration, man was I dumb, I don't even remember how many decks were being used. I believe we were at the Stardust.

If you only placed the side bet when there is a better than averave chance of getting a blackjack then you will get to spin the wheel more often for less capital risked. I don't know what the edge is on the side bet because that wheel pays off differently each time it's spun. I'm sure there is an average payoff but I don't know what it is.

I say it's a stupid wheel because I didn't get any blackjacks but my stupid little brother did (I'd like to nominate that as the most ploppy thing I've posted on this board). I guess it was blackjack jelousy which I know is wrong now but upon thinking about it the initial feeling still come back to me. No more ploppy ways for me though.

of confidence. My family really likes this side bet, they like it in general so I figure if I can find it with a game that I would normally play and the count is high and ace rich I'll give it a shot and see what happens. The problem is that the wheels may be programed individually so it could be a sucker bet at one casino and in the players advantage at another. There really isn't a way to tell without watching a particular wheel long enough. I think the minimum payoff was around $8 for a $1 side bet so there should be some situations allbeit few which I would have at least a 1 in 8 chance of hitting a blackjack. Too bad they don't let you place the bet after the first card has been dealt. Anyway I'll keep an eye out as I'll probably see this option on my next trip and if I figure a way to beat it I'll let you know.

It does slow the game a bit as you have to stop the game and spin the wheel every time someone wins the bet.

This sidebet is beatable. If you run some sims and look at the numbers that's quite apparent. Fewer decks are better. The usual low table max on this bet make the game generally not-worthwhile. Tables without the $1 or $5 max do exist however.

-Pikachu

I've checked out this cheesy wheel before. After 2 or 3 spins I was easliy convinced the wheel is non-random.

I'm not into figuring out ballpark figures, but if I had to give an esimated advantage when it comes to this electronic carnival wheel,I would say the casino has about a 25% edge. The wheel is a scam,a BIG scam. If a master expert of unbeatable games wants to analyze and take on the wheel, they're going to need lots of luck. I prefer to use my time and energy on beatable games.

The wheel is obviously not random as the lower prizes are awarded far more often than the top prizes. If it was random and the wheel boasted high top prizes it would lose money for the casinos. It must be bad for the player off the top because with the amount of ploppy action this bet recieves if it would not last long if it wasn't raking in the dough. The odds in recieving a blackjack is about 21:1 so in order to find out if the game is indeed beatable the payoffs would need to be observed for some period of time unless someone has some inside info. Furthermore if the game is programable on each wheel then not all of the wheels would be equally beatable.

Thanks Pikachu for the information, it's very encouraging.

It's not really a question of randomness unless you're talking about the rng involved. It's really a question of the payoff distibution. Clearly each outcome isn't equally likely.

The odds in recieving a blackjack is about 21:1 so in order to find out if the game is indeed beatable the payoffs would need to be observed for some period of time unless someone has some inside info.

That's one way to do it. Keep in mind that the odds of receiving a blackjack aren't constant.

-Pikachu

"Keep in mind that the odds of receiving a blackjack aren't constant."

Of course the odds of recieving a blackjack are constantly changing, this is why through a count and a side track of the aces you can determine when the favorable situations arise and bet only in those situations.

This might leave you with more questions than answers, but it's some good information:

[0089] Wheel of Madness Random Incrementing Jackpot

[0090] The Wheel of Madness is an example of a random incrementing jackpot for card games such as blackjack. The Wheel of Madness begins by players wishing to participate in the jackpot component of the card game each placing a side wager. A hand or round of the card game is played. If one or more of the players participating in the jackpot component receive a predetermined combination of playing cards, those winning players qualify for the random incrementing jackpot. Each winning player pushes a jackpot button that spins a prize wheel that randomly stops on any one of five fixed jackpots or one incrementing jackpot. The winning players win the jackpot on which the prize wheel stops. If more than one winning player wins the incrementing jackpot, they split the jackpot between themselves.

[0091] Jackpot Amounts and Probabilities of Winning Wheel of Madness

[0092] The six jackpots are as shown in the following chart. The five fixed jackpots range from $10.00 up to $50.00. There is a 1 in 1,875 chance of winning the incrementing jackpot on each spin of the prize wheel. 1

Table contents not available. Please see the table in the original document. The original document or individual tables may be available via links from this document.

[0093] Specifications for Wheel of Madness

[0094] The specifications for the Wheel of Madness are shown in the following chart. The incrementing jackpot ranges from a minimum jackpot of $100.00 to a maximum jackpot of $10,000.00. The meter increments the jackpot $1. 00 every 15 seconds. When the incrementing reaches the maximum jackpot of $10,000.00, it starts over at the minimum jackpot of $100.00. The total cycle time for incrementing from the minimum jackpot of $100.00 to the maximum jackpot of $10,000.00 is 21.04 hours. The average pay is $5,050. 00. The total cycle time coincides with the typical amount of time which casinos are open, being closed for cleaning about 3 hours per day. Therefore, the meter resets to the minimum jackpot each day. 2

Table contents not available. Please see the table in the original document. The original document or individual tables may be available via links from this document.

[0095] Hold % for Wheel of Madness

[0096] The jackpot Hold % is shown in the following chart. The overall Hold % for the jackpots is greatly influence by the amount of the jackpot which is won. The range of the incrementing jackpot can be changed to increase and decrease the minimum and maximum jackpots. Since the side wager is an optional bet, the Hold % from the bonus jackpots will add only about 2% to 4% to the hold % on the primary game such as the card game blackjack. 3

Wow Ivy Kid, I should have thought to look that up for a patent. I don't think that I've ever seen a wheel with a moving jackpot. I think the one that I played at was stuck at 1,000 max which is far far less than the suggested average of over 5,000. Too bad those tables are missing, they are the key to the average payout of the device. Anyway thanks for a great bit of work.

...even under optimal conditions.

According to the patent app., even if you bet $1 near the max payout of $10 grand, the expected return IF you hit blackjack is $5.33 (assuming the jackpot is the bulk of the possible payouts). Even if the jackpot is only 1/2 of the expected return, you are still at a EV of $10 if you hit the BJ.

And hitting BJ is a 21:1 chance (or up to about 15:1 under very high counts). Not worth it.

RC

The jackpot will happen rarely and if it is hit near the end of a cycle the payout would of course be more favorable. You could only play the game at the end of the cycle to ensure this. This also doesn't take into account all of the smaller amounts which will be paid with far greater frequency. To get an idea of how bad it is you need to look at all of the numbers which so far we don't have.

"Wheel of Madness and Madness 21 are similar $1 side bets that your hand will be blackjack. Investigation has determined they give an average pay-out of $16.093. At a True Count greater than plus three blackjacks occur slightly more often than 1 in 16, so this is when the side-bet should be taken."

See complete article for more info:
http://www.propun.com.au/archived_bj/blackjack_news180501.html

That is exactly the information I was after, a true count of plus three happens pretty often so the bet would be justified from time to time. With a side count of Aces you could increase the odds in your favor even more. Now that the point that the game becomes even has been established we can decide if it's beatable. For each additional plus count how much of a percentage do you gain on the game. I'm guessing a little over 1% per so is it really that great...probably not. However if this game is offered with a game that is beatable then the wheel would add something to the astute player though the time that the wheel takes to spin does reduce the number of hands played per hour.

Also if it is widely thought that the game is unbeatable it might make good cover to place the side bet though if you consistantly win playing the bet here and there it might raise suspician but probably not.