Two Deck Hand Shuffling

I want to suggest that you add an additional comment code in column 10 of Blackjack news.

That code would indicate whether two deck and six deck games are hand shuffled or machine shuffled.

I play Blackjack , but I am about to give it up. It is not any fun any more. I have been a losing small time player for years, but I get a kick out of it. I have finally figured out why I am consistently losing. The problem is not the CSM which I do not play. The problem is the automatic shufflers that are used by many casinos for two deck play, especially in the SE, and for six deck shoes.

There stated purpose is to shuffle the cards to speed up play. Research by other parties state that they actually level the deck by eliminating high card clumping distributions. According to a source the machine has an optical card reader and a random number generator. For what purpose would a random shuffler need such technical capability. It is not a matter of stacking the deck to help the dealer win. It is card placement that results in more bust hands per deal. The busts situations affect the dealer also, but the players have already gone first resulting in more wins for the casino. Blackjack now resembles the one step forward two steps back mode of operation similar to slot machines.

From your perspective it makes advantage players functionally obsolete because there are very limited positive counts.

It is all legal. Apparently the gaming authorities allow the casinos to do anything they want and establish conditions that benefit them even if it crosses the line of gambling unfairness. In other words some casinos no longer gamble.

The bottom line is that there is no point in playing or going to that type casino if you don�t have a real random chance provided through shuffling by a human being.

It would be helpful to have this information so you would know where to play and not to play.

An asm designation would be helpful. It could be an additional note in rules, as csm is currently designated. This would increase the number of entries per casino, as there would need to be a line for ASM and non-asm, but I would relish this information.

Do a search for ASMS and you will find some interesting discussions. Make sure to use the plural as ASM will get you hits on words like sarcasm.

A question for the mathematicians: If there are patterns created by the shuffler, and one knew or could determine the algorithm, could the play decisions be altered to create positive EV?

First, I don't know about the SE, but in Vegas, what you describe WOULD be illegal. It would fall under altering the outcome. If proven it would result is a pretty sizable fine for the casino.

Secondly, the 'sequence' is going to effect players and dealer differently depending on number of players. Any change in number of hands played, like a player joining or leaving the table or a player adding or subtracting a hand, would render the whole pre-set up sequence that you describe meaningless. Furthermore if it was say an every other card type sequence designed to match players with one small card and one big card, then that change in number of hands (addition or subtraction of a hand) would all of the sudden result in 2 small cards or two large cards being matched up, both of which are beneficial to the player.

I don't know how big your trial sample size is, but I suspect you have just hit some bad variance. Here in LV, I am doing just fine against DD ASM's over the last few years.

I agree that such a device would alter the random process of dealing and should be considered illegal, if it were proven that this is going on, which I sincerely doubt.

But, never lose sight of the fact that preferential shuffling does exactly the same thing and is considered legal by the criminals who run the Nevada justice system.

Don

I believe that such a device would be very costly. Exorbitant! I think your source is misinformed.

And if there were an optical scanner, why would a random number generator be needed?

My understanding is that the scanner's sole function is to verify that all the cards are there. The machines reduce the time wasted by hand-shuffling. You get more hands per hour, therefore higher hourly EV if you are playing with a positive expectation.

a lawyer, nor did I sleep at a Holiday Inn Express last night, but I too have never understood how preferential shuffling is not illegal, Don. I clearly alters the outcome of the game. Not only that but changes the house odds. If you shuffle away all the positive counts and play all the negative counts, a .40 house advantage probably doubles. I did ask Bob N about this one time during a chat session. I don't remember if he didn't answer or his answer was vague, but it certainly didn't satisfy me.

Justice and money are synonymous. You won't have one without the other.

if what you are saying is correct, then there would rarely be any high or low counts. I can definiitively say that is not correct in MO where I beleve all the 2 deck are machine shuffled. I have seen dd counts as high as +12 & -12 running count even with penetration of only 60%. If these shuffle maachines were eliminating the clumps of high/low cards, these counts would not be happening.

Let's not alert the casinos to to any deficiencies that they may have.

I have seen many machines totally miss the fact there are cards missing. This generally occurs due to overheating or needing maintenance cleaning. Thay are not even close to infallible.

Randomness does not mean there is no clumping. Clumping is a part of randomness. Just like flipping a coin and having it come up tails 3,5,7, etc. times in a row. You need to spend a little time to correctly understand probability theory. With any random shuffle you can get huge positive and negative count swings as well as counts that hardly move off even.

Years ago, I was playing DD at a tribal casino at Lake Chelan, WA.
If I would ramp my bet a little, there was no response, but once I ramped it greater than 5 to 1, they would shuffle up on me.

I asked the dealer why she did that, and she told me is was house policy whenever anybody bet more than 5x their original bet, and the auto-shuffler didn't really slow it down when they did it.

So, I started ramping 4 to 1, but anytime the deck would become sufficiently negative, I'd ramp it more and... voila?...

... she would shuffle away all the small cards for me.

Went on like that for hours.

for sure your strategy would change.

I believe you are playing against a stack deck, if you go to the U.S. Patent Office web site and look up U.S. Pat. No.7,753,373 which explains the operation of a multiple mode card shuffler and card reading device, a related U.S. Pat. No. 6,267,248 describes an apparatus for arranging playing cards in a desired order. If the casinos are allow prearranging decks of playing cards you better believe they will. Since I live in Pittsburgh, Pa. I sent a email to the Pa gaming commission to find out if Casinos in Pennsylvania must provide a random shuffle, the response back was that they are not required. You need to contact your state gaming commission to find out what the rule is, I hope this helps.

Pennsylvania Rules and Regulations
Title 58. Recreation
Part VII. Gaming Control Board

"� 633a.5. Shuffle and cut of the cards.
(a) Immediately prior to commencement of play, unless the cards were preshuffled in accordance with � 603a.16(u) or (v) (relating to cards; receipt, storage, inspection and removal from use), after each shoe of cards is dealt or when directed by a floorperson or above, the dealer shall shuffle the cards, either manually or by use of an automated card shuffling device, so that the cards are randomly intermixed. Upon completion of the shuffle, the dealer or device shall place the decks of cards in a single stack. The certificate holder may use an automated card shuffling device which, upon completion of the shuffling of the cards, inserts the stack of cards directly into a dealing shoe."

Note that there are other sections relating to the use of shuffling machines and their authorized use. Never rely on a voice on the phone or a quick email to give you the correct answer, especially with government agencies. Do your own research and follow-up.

I would venture a guess that all states have rules regarding the randomness of cards in their games.

Cobbson

I would expect that a correct shuffle procedure ends with the cut by one of the players. Apart from CSM, I would never play in a game where this opportunity is not granted.

Francis Salmon

The final sentence of your quote says:
"The certificate holder may use an automated card shuffling device which, upon completion of the shuffling of the cards, inserts the stack of cards directly into a dealing shoe."
Can you tell me where the player's cut comes in under such circumstances?

Francis Salmon

...Then I remembered a toy I bought for my son, must have been 25 years ago. Perhaps this is what they boys in Harrisburg were thinking about. Wonder if Shufflemaster, or SHFL, or BallyMaster or whatever they call the company now, is thinking of buying the patent from Radio Shack.