trip/toke report

Had kids up for Thanksgiving, wife wanted to visit her brother/sister in South Mississippi on Saturday/Sunday. Off we went, as we were leaving Sunday afternoon late I suggested "Hey, we are only an hour or so from the coast, what about stopping by for some quick casino action, then hitting I10 to I65 to get home?" "I knew you'd say that..."

Off we went. Found one of my favorite DD games, S17, DA2, DAS, RSA, RS4, LS, typical penetration that was between 50-60%. $25 table. Bought in for $500.

My plan was the following. At TC <= 1, bet $25, at TC=2/3 bet $50, at TC=4/5 bet $75 and at TC >= 6, bet $100. Couldn't be simpler. Simple 1-4 spread. Sat down with two other players.

Played for a couple of shuffles, doing OK, nothing spectacular, count went up decently and the stop card came out. As the dealer shuffled, I said (never tried this before, but..) "Dang, the cards had just started going our way (murmers of agreement from the other two players), if you'll do more dealing and less shuffling, because I can only stay another hour or so, I'll bet a $25 toke every hour for you." Player to my right said "me too." Dealer looked at us funny, but now inserted the stop card about 75% back. Count rose a shuffle or two later and I kept my word and dropped my $100 bet along with the $25 dealer toke. BJ. Dealer made 37.50 from my toke, guy beside me won, so dealer made $25 there.

We played at the 75-80% pen level for a while, and before the first 45 mins were up, I had about $1150 worth of chips in front of me, $650 profit. Wife came by, looked, asked how I was doing, and then "let's go while you are ahead." "Another 45 mins, we said we were leaving at x:00" Mistake.

Next shuffle, after one hand running count was +20. All kinds of small cards out. TC was +10, I was using the common doubling scheme (1-2-4) when I won, but my first bet was $50 because my previous bet was $100 and I didn't want to drop back to $25 at every shuffle. So now $100 out, still three playing, dealer deals and as I pick up my 2 cards, the guy to my right says "alright!" and tosses down a snapper, as I looked at the dealer's 10 up, and my cards, I tossed down my snapper as well. Guy on my left was slower and as he was looking and then tossed in his 21 as well, dealer flipped over his hole card which was an Ace. 4 21's. No insurance with the 10 up, all pushes. Bad omen. :)

Played one shuffle where the running count hit +24 by the time we were at the 1d mark, was down to 16 (but TC was +32) by the time the stop card came out. Anyway, to make a long story short, my $1150 shrank to $200 before I left. So I made a donation of $300 to the coastal casino property, of course that does include two $25 tokes for the dealer.

Someone was discussing a while back whether tokes are worth it or not. Hard to say. But clearly going from 50-60% pen to 75-80% pen was worth a quarter an hour IMHO.

No significant heat. Fairly crowded overall, but the $10 tables were the ones that were stuffed. One first was this was the first time I ever saw everyone including the dealer get a natural on the same hand, 8 good cards drop out, no money changes hands... Also the +650 the first 30 minutes, offset by the -950 the last 1.5 hours was pretty ugly.

As I colored up, cashed out, then went to find my wife, we ran into each other. She was grinning. Said "Just won $320 at this new nickel (real nickel, not $5) slot machine, how did we do for the trip?" I mumbled "we are up $20." "What???" More clearly "We are up $20." Rest of conversation went downhill. :) However, she still remembers my $9500 in about 3 hours so she wasn't _that_ unhappy. :)

Now for the ploppy of the week story. As I first sat down, I was at what I suppose you could call 2nd base. Had a guy to my right and one to my left almost on 3rd, but there was an empty seat to his left. I had an empty seat to my left, the "guy" to my right. After two rounds, he had gotten stiff hands and I had gotten decent cards. He lost twice, I won twice. So he takes his next bet, reaches in front of me, and places it in the circle to my left. Said something like "I don't like the cards I'm getting, think I'll let you have mine and I'll take yours." Thought that was pretty stupid, but didn't say anything. He got a 21, I got a 16 vs dealer 8 and hit it to get a 18 and pushed. Repeat. He won, I lost. But the reaching in front of me was annoying, so I came up with a plan. TC was +12, I was betting $100, so I simply placed _another_ $100 bet to _his_ right by reaching in front of him. The dealer was now looking at about the most ridiculous table setup you could imagine. From his perspective, 1st base was my bet, my bet was my bet, the empty spot to my left was the bet for the player to my right, and then who was on 3rd? :) I won both hands, the ploppy lost. Got mad. He reached in front of me again, so I followed suit and bet to his left. He said "you can't do that" and I replied "you are doing it, why can't I?" "Because you are betting two hands, I'm only betting one, and you are messing with the flow of the cards." To reduce the long story to a short one, he left in a huff. Dealer said "I had to be dreaming to see that..." I added "yes, a _bad_ dream." I've seen 'em move around, but neve reach across a player. I suppose I could have objected and the dealer would likely have called the pit critter over and he would have said "you can't do that." But it seemed better (at the time) to handle it and have some fun at the same time. :)

Strange pair of players (other player to my left) was so loaded with chip remover that he asked me on _every_ hand what the dealer had up, said "I can't see his card very clearly." Annoyed the dealer a few times as well. IE once he had two face cards, hit, got a face card, and slid his two cards under his chips. As the dealer was paying off he flipped the two cards over and said "you broke, why didn't you throw them in." Guy said "I thought I had a 10." Dealer said "you did. two of 'em in fact." He was also pretty annoying, buying in for $100 at a time, which was generally good for about 4 hands like he was playing, although he occasionally won one. I doubt if he even remembered where he was the next morning...

more after the next trip, after the sting from this loss has faded...

Note, nothing says that the days I mentioned are correct. :)

Off we went. Found one of my favorite DD games, S17, DA2, DAS, RSA, RS4, LS, typical penetration that was between 50-60%. $25 table. Bought in for $500.

My plan was the following. At TC <= 1, bet $25, at TC=2/3 bet $50, at TC=4/5 bet $75 and at TC >= 6, bet $100. Couldn't be simpler. Simple 1-4 spread. Sat down with two other players.

Bad pen. Poor bet spread. Not even playing heads up. This game plan really, really sucks. Either you have to bet more, play at a $10 table, or be able to see the dealer's hole card. I don't read all your posts, but I sure as heck hope you are not using a one level count with that ramp.

I don't play double deck much at all, but my guess is that you just outed yourself to the casino. Someplace on the coast with LS and RSA on double deck... You can out yourself all you want, but now they may have reviewed some tape and even as I write this are terming the dealer that gave you the 75% pen...

...I'll bet a $25 toke every hour for you." Player to my right said "me too." Dealer looked at us funny, but now inserted the stop card about 75% back. Count rose a shuffle or two later and I kept my word and dropped my $100 bet along with the $25 dealer toke. BJ. Dealer made 37.50 from my toke, guy beside me won, so dealer made $25 there.

That does not sound like a good deal to me. You give up $25 in certainty for better pen. My guess is that the score-type measure of your game actually got worse with this deal. You may even be playing a losing game with your weak bet spread. And since most recreational players vastly overestimate their pen, there is a good chance you were only getting 65%-70% instead of the usual 47%-55%. Buy a couple of decks and a cut card at the Biloxi casino supply store and practice looking at different amounts of cards to improve your pen estimations. Now if you were betting $25-$500, I would revise my opinion on the matter.

So I made a donation of $300 to the coastal casino property, of course that does include two $25 tokes for the dealer...(snip)..more after the next trip, after the sting from this loss has faded...

TWO $25 tips? You were giving your tips near the front end of each hour?? So if you played 90 minutes you were tipping $33/hour. Sixty-one minutes and you are tipping about $50/hour. That sucks even worse. You may not even be playing a winning game at all.

If you are have a top bet of $100 and you actually give a s*it about a $300 loss, you are betting too much.

In order to be a serious player instead of a recreational (or even losing) player, you need to play with better conditions. Buy casino verite or BJRM and look at your risk. Buy a subscription to green chip, read everything posted by DD' and bigplayer the last few years and then ask for your money back from Al if you don't think it is worth it.

Math Boy

and gorilla player you should take heed of what this poster, MB, says. MB is as fine an AP as there is. I never knowingly miss his posts as they often contain great gems of information.

This is one guy who SHOULD write a book.

Iggy.

Definitely using 1-level (Hi-Lo). But note that the Pen was going to 80% and better after the "toke" issue, which was the main point for bringing it up... Head's up is _very_ difficult to find anywhere on the coast at reasonable hours. Sometimes I take what I can get. But I'd rather play with 2 other players at the pen we were getting than nothing... You might well be correct about the SCORE of the game, although if you want to compare the SCORE for 50% pen to 80% pen, with a typical bet spread of 1-4 (unit = 25) but by typical I mean what is reasonable based on the count, and counts of +8 and beyond were not that common.

As far as "outing myself" I doubt it. As I said, the "dates were changed to protect the guilty." If they want to watch tapes, fine by me. They'll be _very_ good to find this particular case... There are a _lot_ of casinos along the coast.

As far as estimating cards, I can get within 1/2 deck out of a 6 deck stack, every time. That's part of the idea of true count, remember, it is important to be able to estimate this. For a while I could estimate the last deck to 1/4 deck accuracy but I quit practicing that since I found it hard to find decent SD games.

Also, I don't think it necessary to spread 1-20 at a 2d game to win. I've been playing 2d for quite a while and 1-4 or 1-6 has worked pretty well for me, when the pen is reasonable. At 75%+, which is pretty rare I admit, I generally do pretty well.

As far as the tips, as I said, I offered "a 25 $ bet, 'at a good time', once per hour, if he would do more dealing and less shuffling." I've _never_ tried that before, but a few have mentioned it more than once and I thought I'd give it a whirl to see if a toke really could improve penetration. I only have a sample size of one so far, so not even enough for a straight line estimate, but so far the answer is "it does appear to work for the one test case so far."

Note that I gave a rough idea of my betting plan. I did not give _exact_ details since many think that is "too much information." But, in general, I _was_ betting $25-$100 on average, except for when the count rose enough to make it worthwhile to go farther. I just didn't include the specifics, other than I could add that I bet more than 2x that amount at least a dozen times as the count dictated...

BTW I am the proud owner of CV bj and CVCX. And I played CV BJ for about 100 sessions to test out the rules of the game I was going to hit down there. I will have to wait until I get home to actually print out real numbers, but that game, at that penetration, with the bet spread I was actually using (via Hi-Lo) was certainly profitable in both. I'll try to find the cvcx sim data when I get home late tonight, and post it for reference...

And yes, I listen to BP and DD every time I see them post something. Both have been helpful with advice to me in fact. And my plans do include joining GC. However, I am a member of so many online things, that I'm trying to make sure I have it all under control so that my wife doesn't think I am buying a new car on the side. :)

I doubt I will _ever_ be what you call a "serious player". I am what I would call a _serious_ recreational player. I play about once a month, sometimes twice a month, I don't depend on it to live, I don't take long trips just to play BJ and make money, etc. So I'm not a pro and really have no desire to be one. I have had a few really big nights, a few somewhat bad nights, but overall I'm way ahead of the game I used to play prior to counting, which started about 4 years ago when I decided that if I was going to play, I was also going to win some along the way...

My goal is fun, plus some money, plus some more fun. I'm fortunate enough that I don't owe anybody for anything, so I'm not constantly looking for money from peter to pay paul... :)

I have read several posts from people here and elsewhere that seem to know what they are talking about... It isn't too hard to figure out who does and who doesn't, thankfully. Of course someone like Patrick fits in the latter category. :)

However, one thing I can do is count and play. At least that part has come quite easily to me, probably due to all the computer stuff I do on a regular basis that requires remembering lots of numbers such as interrupt numbers, table indices for various system flags, etc... I'm simply taking something I'm pretty good at and applying it to something I had never thought about before. And no doubt, I'll continue to learn about this until I reach room temperature. :)

Off we went. Found one of my favorite DD games, S17, DA2, DAS, RSA, RS4, LS, typical penetration that was between 50-60%. $25 table. Bought in for $500.

My plan was the following. At TC <= 1, bet $25, at TC=2/3 bet $50, at TC=4/5 bet $75 and at TC >= 6, bet $100. Couldn't be simpler. Simple 1-4 spread. Sat down with two other players.
...
Definitely using 1-level (Hi-Lo).

I put this game into SBA. I use this thing about once a year, so I may have put it in incorrectly. If someone gets something markedly different please say so. I assumed you have pen of 60 cards, which is very optimistic on the coast. At 50 hands per hour (which is optimistic with two squares in a pitch game), you are making a whopping $12.52 per hour.

Now let's change it to 78 cards for your 75% pen. You are making $24.81, or -$0.19 after your $25 tip.

There are a _lot_ of casinos along the coast.

But there are not a lot of casinos along the coast offering RSA and LS on double deck. If you are a professor of computer science or something, you know that details matter. You have to learn which details with which to concern yourself.

And yes, I listen to BP and DD every time I see them post something. Both have been helpful with advice to me in fact. And my plans do include joining GC. However, I am a member of so many online things, that I'm trying to make sure I have it all under control so that my wife doesn't think I am buying a new car on the side. :)

You don't worry about tipping away all of your edge, but you worry about $12.50. And you spend a lot of time posting on this free page. If you play BJ well, you won't have to buy a new car on the side. You can walk into a dealership and give them a check for your new car. (And have $40K in cash in your bag in case they won't accept your check!)

I doubt I will _ever_ be what you call a "serious player". I am what I would call a _serious_ recreational player. I play about once a month, sometimes twice a month, I don't depend on it to live, I don't take long trips just to play BJ and make money, etc. So I'm not a pro and really have no desire to be one.

Please notice that there is a big difference between being a serious player and a pro. A pro does it for a living. That is the definition of a pro. A serious player will play a strong game. Many serious players will never be pros. Doesn't make them weaker players, just means they don't want to quit their day job. A serious player realizes that conditions are EVERYTHING. If you don't get good conditions, you don't play. You have to be able to walk into a casino and walk out without placing a bet.

In my terminology, a recreational player does not take their game seriously. They will play for the sake of playing. They will play a weak game because they never want to get backed off. They will not become students of the game.

Math Boy

I could be wrong.....but there is only one.

There are a _lot_ of casinos along the coast

Enough said.

cheers
bfb

OK. Let's take details one by one...

My betting schedule was "softened" a bit. I won't say a lot more as I really don't know how much attention they pay. I rarely play the same place on two consecutive trips, or even twice in 6 months most commonly, but I try to not say too much when I think about it. You could assume that my bet spread was a bit more than I indicated. In a typical shuffle, 1-4 is not that uncommon, since at least 1/3 of the shoes are mostly negative, about 1/3 are mostly neutral, and I'm not even sure that 1/3 are very good, particularly when you factor in 3 players. In rough assumption of 3 cards per hand, eats 12 per round, 6 rounds to that 75% pen point (and yes, I certainly agree that 50% is _far_ more common. And that is where we started out on this game before the "toke experiment"... What was my max bet? Let's leave it at north of $200 on the right counts... But if I were trying to pin an "average bet" I'd have to say probably $50-$75 the way I ramped (yes a bit faster than what I quoted, but again, several had cautioned against too many details so I elected to "listen". :)

As far as buying a new car, as I said, my wife and I have managed our finances carefully. I don't owe a penny to anyone, even though I am driving a 2004 truck and my wife drives a 2002 Honda Accord. I'm not poor. I'm not rich. But I've done OK. Hence my interest in BJ, as it is an interesting recreation, and if recreation actually puts money in my pocket, even better. My main recreation is fishing, and if you've owned a boat or fished a lot, you know what kind of cost that involves, so BJ is sort of "the opposite" in that regard...

And finally, your definition of "serious player" is what I intend to become, although it is going to take some time. I've been counting about 4 years. The first two years was _very_ infrequent play. The last two years has seen significantly more activity, and our activity (my wife/I) has picked up as kids have gotten settled, everything was paid off, etc... Mechanically, I doubt I will ever get any better than I am. Counting is really not a problem. I catch myself doing this sub-consciously all the time. Brother and his wife come over before we make one of our casino junkets (monthly we take a trip somewhere within a decent driving distance). His wife loves 3-card poker so we end up playing that for a while although I hate the game and don't play it in a casino. And I always find myself counting without even knowing I am counting, and as we near the end of the deck, I usually count it down to the end just to check myself. My wife thought I was obsessed with learning how to do this, I simply called myself "devoted". :)

Whether I pick up the remaining qualities to be a serious counter remains to be seen. But I have had some fun doing this, and I have kept session records. Taking out the rather remarkable $9500 win in 3 hours a month or two back, my winning has been pretty consistent. Yes I have played some bad games. My son likes to play cheap tables which means (usually) 6D games. I played 6d with him a few weeks ago where I did the counting, played every hand to keep it simple, and made about $35 over a three hour period. He made over 10x that, wonging in and out on a hand-by-hand basis based on what I was betting... That was pretty miserable, _BUT_ when playing with my kids (my daughter also plays) the fun is worth the work, sometimes.

Another note is that yes, I realize there are better games. BP gave me several names of coastal properties and elsewhere that apparently have good SD games. One minor problem is that one he suggested I can't (won't) play at. Good (long-time) friend of mine is head of security. I won't say more for obvious reasons, but I did promise him I would never go there. He said "of course I would not say anything" but I answered "I would not want to put either of us in that position..." As a result, he's given me lots of info about capabilities of many casinos that I might play at. And one big point is that I am not worried about them looking at an event that I describe today, when it happened 2+ or more weeks ago. It just won't happen. You might know why, or you might guess, or you can ask offline since I have a sense that you can be trusted. But I'm pretty comfortable in that "info"... I plan on slowly traveling farther, and putting together a more detailed description of each game offered, something I have not done a lot of in the past. IE so far, I'd say that the best 6d shoe penetration I've seen was either in Vegas or at the Beau. Worst was at Pearl River. But even saying that is misleading as I found a couple of dealers that apparently hated shuffling and so gave even better penetration.

As far as the penetration estimation goes, I'm a big CV fan, and I run their drill for decks (1/2 decks) remaining all the time, with hardly any errors. I'm pretty sure I can hit 1.5 decks out of 2 within a few cards. IE I can tell the difference between 60 and 78 with absolutely no difference. 78 to 86 might be more of a problem of course.

As far as "toking" goes, rest assured I do _not_ throw money away. I viewed this not as a new thing I planned on doing every time, rather I simply wanted to get my own data on "will toking the dealer improve penetration?" Several had said it would. I was a bit skeptical. Apparently I was wrong. Now the question is, how much toking is necessary to get good pen without wrecking the effective SCORE... I'm simply gathering data at the present, not establishing some sort of pattern for all future sessions. :)

Finally, of course I appreciate your comments. I find it funny that once I get heat for saying too much, then I tone it down significantly and you take my betting schedule too literally and I get heat from that direction. But rest assured I listen. And I intend to get better at this "recreational activity". :)

Also, I don't really mind the polite back-offs I've had. I've had more than one that was pretty stupid (IE a case where some guy walked up and made a $1000 bet on top of my $100 bet, the pit boss (after he did this twice) accused us of being a team, even though I've never seen the guy in my life. Wasn't barred, however, but doubt I will get back there as it was in an out of the way place on a distant business trip... I'm hardly a "Kenny Uston" type bettor of course, but then I'm not a little old lady betting $5 each hand either. :)

And I'm also sure my betting spread could be wilder. however, I've been a bit cautious as I'm really not going to be a world-traveler until perhaps after I retire in 10+ years, and don't want to end up being able to count cards like a banshee, with no place to count at. :)

Again, thanks for the comments. Can not get to my cvcx data. I have somehow managed to blow up my laptop. Have it dual-booted with linux (which I run 99% of the time) and windows XP to run the CV stuff and a couple of other microsoft applications. Something got corrupted when I let the battery run down while windows was up, I'm working on it as I type here...

I have played two... but I haven't been to every last one down there. Note, as I said, the dates are wrong. I'm pretty certain my reports are well outside the VHS longevity based on a "little birdy". :) Actually, from what I actually _know_, the videotaping is greatly exaggerated. In the past two months, I have either been at a table, or watching a table, where there was a dispute, and a call to the eye resulted in "no recording for that incident"... I won't say more online however...

You are probably talking about the "LS"??? Remember that things are not always what I say. :) I was taken to task for being _too_ specific, so while I still try to be specific, nothing says _every_ detail is accurate, if you know what I mean. :)

I think you mentioned that you have many online interests and subscriptions. Do I have that right? If so, it seems that you would benefit greatly by subscribing to both greenchip and dons domain. Just my opinion. The archives alone at both sites are worth the price of admission. Certainly better eV than tipping for increased pen, which is rare, and should be done only after a dealer increases the pen, not before.

As I said, just a friendly tip.

cheers
bfb

I try to listen. I'll try to post the important details as accurately as sanity allows. But the rest I will generally alter, particularly if there are details that might be remembered. However, there is a bit of time-lapse anyway as I want to be outside the "tape review window" regardless. IE the event I reported happened about 30 days ago. I was on a coast property this past weekend. Nothing like what I described happened this time around, I mainly played a shoe game with my son and brother-in-law playing as well.

If I could just get my son to count, I could either (a) get him off the cheapo games (shoe) that I hate or else (b) let him play and count 'em himself.

BTW you are right about the LS. I've seen it at one place myself, on the coast, but I have not looked carefully in NO so am not including Harrah's or whatever there. Found LS in Vegas a lot, but it was really hidden well. Think the Grand (IIRC) had a sign on the podium in the pit, something that I didn't notice the first couple of times I played there. And no, I am not certain it was the Grand now, that was back in June. My notes along with a few clothes are in never-never-land lost by Southwest on a one-stop with changeover return flight...

look for me there pretty soon. It is on my list of things to take care of.

Count rose a shuffle or two later and I kept my word and dropped my $100 bet along with the $25 dealer toke. BJ. Dealer made 37.50 from my toke, guy beside me won, so dealer made $25 there.

gorilla player,

Didn't the dealer make $62.50 with a BJ on a $25 toke?

All in all, an amusing story... keep 'em coming!

Dog Hand

yes. I was thinking "amount won" and not total amount of toke. IE I had placed a $25 side bet. Probably wrote that so late at night that I wasn't exactly thinking dead clear. :)

Yes, on that one hand he made a $62.50 toke from me including winnings, and $50 from the guy next to me... Whether that was offset by the really good penetration for the next hour and a half or not is a good question. I only wanted to answer the question "will a dealer increase pen for tokes?" Only have one data point so far, answer = yes. I doubt all dealers will do that of course.

And please forgive my math skills, or lack thereof... :)

I doubt the stories can "keep coming". I can't possibly continue with such a string of strange players, surely there aren't _that_ many of 'em. Seems like the last two-three months have really been interesting, in terms of playing with weird players. IE one that wasn't so bad was a female that was betting $25-$100 using nickles. She made the stack lean to the left kind of like five steps. Dealer straightened them up. She made them lean again. Had words. She said something about she won 75% of the time when the stack was skewed to the left, lost 75% when it was perfectly vertical. I was thinking she had already lost most of her marbles, her chips were going to follow pretty soon. :) Only reason it was an issue is that this was a 2d hand-held game, and about 1/2 the time when she tucked her cards, the stack would fall over... No I don't believe she was a counter either, as our bets were never close. This was a Vegas happening back in June, for a time reference. I can take that better than a guy that for three nights at the MGM Grand always played at the same table I was playing (2d again) wearing his lucky shirt. Only problem was apparently he never washed it. Made the smoke smell good. :) Fortunately I've never been much on superstition, so I don't stink or do weird things that I am aware of. :)

My sister-in-law told me about a guy playing at a 3-card poker table with her. Farted before every hand. When someone finally asked "what in hell is that stink? where is it coming from?" This guy spoke up, "sorry, that was me, it improves my luck significantly." Big guy sitting on other side of my sister-in-law took offense at that, said "if it happens again, I'm going to plug the offending hole permanently." Sister-in-law left before things went from gross to violent. Of course, that is third-hand, I was not at that table since I don't play that mindless 3-card poker game (got a Q-6-4 or better? Bet. Otherwise fold. can't stand it.)

Seems that gamblers are a highly superstitious lot... Of course I don't consider APs to be gamblers. So for God's sake, take your beano before coming to my table. :)

I used CVCX. While the actual game I played didn't have LS, I included that as a bit of "fog" in my post and will therefore report sim data that matches exactly what I wrote, which ought to be close to what you used:

S17 DAS LS 2 decks, 75% pen

Min bet = 25, max bet = 100.

My actual betting was as I had mentioned in other posts, not exactly as I had given here, again for more "fog". I bet the min at TC <= 1, 2x at TC=2, and 4x at TC>2. This will make my data somewhat better than yours, but as I said, I tried to not give too many precise details, and was not expecting you to run a sim based on that hypothetical set of numbers. But my 1-4 spread, according to how I actually played, as simulated by CVCX, predicts a $38 per hour win. Factored in with my "toke test" this dropped to $13. Of course, I don't plan on doing $25 tokes in the future, I hardly ever toke anyway, unless a dealer goes out of the way to be friendly or whatever, and then it is limited.

But, in actuality, you were almost correct. The $25 toke _almost_ made it a negative EV, although I suppose to some a $13 per hour pay would be acceptable. :)

R U also known as the wizard in Neverland?

Its been a couple o years since Ive been on here but seem to remember u using the mathboy handle.

if its u...see u in a week!

:)

Are you going to my house or something? I think you have me confused with someone else. But I've been using this handle for several years. I think a friend met you around 1999-2000, but I don't remember who it was.

Math Boy

yep...had u confused with a teammate. I wuz posting quite a bit for a while in 01 and I think he may have used the handle for a little while.