If me and a partner are sitting at a table, and the dealer exposes the hole-card to me, can I legally signal the value to someone else at the table that is also playing? I would like to know if there are any laws against this. Not talking about spooking. Any comments from J Morgan especially welcome. Feel free to email me.
Basically the principles involved are a) it is not the player's responsibility to police house procedures and b) players may share information obtained legitimately at the table (front-loading is unambiguously legitimate).
As you mention, spooking would be a different kettle of fish altogether. More importantly, if you gain hole-card info by some trickery, such as feigning drunkeness and slouching low in your chair or feigning disability and using a wheelchair, then the court *might* rule that you obtained information not normally available to a player at the table and you would be in trouble.
...the casino security guards have a right to beat your ass in the back room when they catch you cheating too... ask mr morgan about that too he's an expert on that
I had read that casinos have tried to say that wheelchairs are devices, and therefore illegal, but do you really think it would be against the law to slouch over in your chair? It seems like you almost always have to lean over at least a little when hole-carding. I have been told to scoot up to the table and to sit up straight, but I never thought that it might be illegal.
Thanks for any insight.
Spooking. The use of a spotter located somewhere away from a blackjack table to identify the dealer's down card, who then signals the value of the card to a player at the table. It is considered to be cheating.
You can always get the answer to these type questions in the glossary to your left.
You see under a woman's dress as she is going up the stairs or as she leans over. Probably no crime. Suppose you lean over and look under women's dresses? I think you'll be arrested.
If I was playing Stratego with someone... and I happen to notice that the Red Flag has a marking on it... and I used that information to win... regardless of whether I put the mark there or not I would still be cheating... using information I'm not allowed to have. Now I wouldn't expect to get beat up or arrested over a game of Stratego... but then again I don't play Stratego for hundreds of dollars a game either.
I had read that casinos have tried to say that wheelchairs are devices, and therefore illegal, but do you really think it would be against the law to slouch over in your chair?
It is possibly illegal. In fact, no precedent has ever been established or indeed is ever likely to be, since it seems the casinos are very reluctant to risk an unfavourable precedent, they benefit from the current murky legality which puts a lot of law-abiding players off this type of strategy.
If it was down to me I think the player should be able to slouch as they please-I can also see problems arising when the casino backrooms the guy with the back problem and gets hit with a big counter-suit.
I guess DD's accurate (though slightly warped) analogy is as close as you'll get to a definitive answer.
Hey, I've been slouching all my life. Have to wear gloves in the summer to keep my knuckles from dragging on the concrete. Have never, ever, even once been approached by a casino because of it.
I remember once acting partly intoxicated and actually laying my head down on my arm on the rail. No heat.
I've spotted a few hole cards over the years (combination of sloppy dealers & poor posture,) but it has never seemed to help much. This was mostly due to the fact that the cards I happened to spot didn't change my play (just my luck,), and also because I failed to completely memorize Stanford's variations for when the hole card is known.
Also, the sloppy dealers seemed to change pretty quickly, so although I've tried to "stalk" a few, they drift in and out of the habit.
I'm no lawyer, but c'mon. I'll get my fifth grade teacher to testify in my behalf: "Your honor, I always told that little jerk to sit up straight, or he'd go straight to hell and the penitentiary, blah blah blah..."
:: ::
That was the time of the trigger-happy sexual harassment charges, as you may recall. We even spent one day in our "Career & Life Management" course in high school talking about dating in the workplace. The teacher's sage advice: "Ask once, ask carefully, and never ask again."
Maybe now that things have died down a bit, it might not be a crime. Having said that, I still like to tie my shoe on the escalator when opportunity permits :)
M.
In order for a game to be a true test of skill, each player has a responsibility for maintaining the integrity of the game. Passively permitting undeserved information to continue to flow is no different than actively seeking to find that information. I certainly agree in your Stratego example, it constitutes cheating. It's an open confession that you yourself feel you are the inferior opponent, and as such you need this information to win.
The debate rages on whether blackjack is a "test of skill" game between the player and the casino, or whether it's a test of what you can get away with, how far you can bend the system to get the most out of it before they finally snap.
It's a decision for each player to make, and it's based on what they want out of the game.
M.
dropping my pencil on the floor and picking it up as they pass by. This method was extremely effecive in grade school; used to peer up our teachers skirts.
One of my favorite things to do was to quickly blurt out the color of the panties to my pal right in fron of her. She would have not idea why, day after day we would randomly yelp out "Blue!" or "Purple!".
Oh how I miss those days...
I guess I need to work on my maturity a bit...
or not. They are not going to press charges against you and risk a lawsuit.They are going to ask you to leave. They don't need a reason to refuse your business.
eldo
how much you've taken them for. If you've won 30K, money they feel you've stolen, they can get very ugly. Especially since most of these law suits tend to be settled out of court in the low five figures anyway. The casino is very likely to believe that attempting to keep your money is their highest ev play.
As I understand the law it is illegal to obtain information that isn't avaiable to all players at the table. This has always been open to a variety of interpetations.
Several (or could be many) years ago two players were arrested in LV for playing hole card. I don't remember the case or the players, but I do remember what happened. The case was thrown out of court because, even though one player saw the card value and signaled it to the other player across the table, the inability of the dealer to properly protect his hole card that allowed the one player to see it was not considered an act of cheating. The information was available, and the players used it.
To my knowledge the only cases of this type that will lead to an arrest and cheating case is when a player uses some type of device to get this information, ie., mirror, camera in the belt buckle, shinny Zippo lighter (shiner), etc. I doubt a case could be built around a wheelchair. The casino does have some responsibilty to use common sense in protecting their games. A person sitting low in a wheelchair should invoke a greater amount of care in placing the hole card on the casinos part.
Also, I don't think the State of Nevada would make a case about someone "spooking" a game from behind. Again, the same argument. The casino has to be responsible to some extent.
One more tidbit, even if the person is cheating, it doesn't warrant the casino security to lay a finger on him. Taking someone into the back room and beating the crap out of them can NEVER be allowed.
My two cents,
Zman
Hi Z, case was Einbiender(sic)/Dahlberg vs State of Nevada. Went all the way to the NV. supreme court I believe. Where it was dismissed.
Cheating reversed?
Say the house knows everytime the count goes plus you flare your nostrils. So they shuffle when this happens, is this cheating? no.
Listen your edge is so small in the game a pro or a ploppy would be foolish not to use any free info.
For more info go the nevada gaming control board web site, all the laws are there.
