Regrettable Tipping Thread

There was a thread below in which the subject of tipping was discussed. I stayed out of the thread because it was turning into a flame war. But I did want to add some comments about it.

Some background. In discussions on tipping among card-counters, the prevalent view is �Just Say No�. I am in the minority and argued against this.

You can derive benefits from tipping that would effect your bottom line. However, they are rarely enough to offset the costs of the tip. That is, a $10 tip may �buy� a better game, but rarely is it worth $10 additional EV.

However, I do think there is some argument that dealers are like waitresses and bartenders, whose wages are based upon an expectation that the customers would tip. (Although I must say, I think the tipping problem regarding cocktail waitresses is much worse. You have to tip a $1 for a glass of 4 oz of �free� coke that would cost you about 25 cents if you bought it yourself.)

I do think counters should fold some tipping into their business plan, More on this later.

However, the thread below reinforces one of the strongest arguments of the anti-tippers. no amount of �reasonable� tipping will satisfy a dealer. You draw just as much grief form a reasonable tip as form no tip.

In the example below, Richard advocated tipping away 0.5% of your total action. I think he thought it was as small and reasonable. The problem is that this is a hug hit for a card-counter. In most games, the counters EV is less than 1.5% of total action. So this amount to tipping over a third of your EV.

Now that may still not sound so bad, until you realize that the counter bares all the risks. The Variance in this game is huge, and it takes a long time to get into the Long Run. The long run index N0 is inversely proportional to the square of your EV. So giving up 1/3 of your EV raises you N0 by a factor of (3/2)^2, or about 2.25. It would take you twice as long to get into the Long Run, and you would only make 1/3 as much profit when you did.

My own experience shows the effects that even a modest amount of tipping can do .the bottom line. Last year, I experience a negative fluctuation, and only made a small proportion of my EV. Tips cost me about 36% of my total win. Expenses cost me about the same amount. So at the end of the year, I only netted about 30% of my EV. When you consider how much time I put into it, and you look at little I made, the whole year was essentially a negative for me.

Now you might think that I was over-tipping, but the fact of the matter is that I was only tipping about 10% of EV. The cumulative effect of this can be enough to put a part-time player in the whole for a year.

This year is much better. I have made more than my EV, and tips are costing me only about 7.4% of my gross win. Again this is because I have had a positive fluctuation, and not becoming I was tipping at a lower rate.

I have to say, I don�t think all dealers are like Richard. I think some are grateful for a modest amount of tipping. But too many of them have the attitude �What: you are only giving me a f�g nickel�, which is why I still tip. But if all casino people had that attitude, it would better not to tip at all.

I think the pit doesn't really expect tips from a player who is losing. Therefore, I usually rat-hole some of the winnings for that reason and to appear to be doing worse than what is actual. If I tip, I will only tip a modest amount at the end after coloring-up or during a winning session as a bet for the pit during a high count. I never tip if I'm just passing through and making a quick hit on a casino. I only tip if I feel I can gain something in return. If I place a tip bet, it is usually when I'm trying to buy one more hand from a 1D or 2D, ie pushing them beyond their usual shuffle point during a high C. I'm probably getting away with tipping less than 1% of just my largest winning sessions. This last week I won $1300 for 9.75 hours of play. I tipped a total of $10 to the pit and $2 for a total of 3 drinks while at the tables.

Not to drag this on, and Mathprof has just made an excellent post, but here`s a few posts I made over at CCCafe that I think are relevant:

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Hey ...

I`ve caught the occaisional post of yours, and something keeps creeping up in each time:

Tips.

Be very carefull here. A $1 tip costs you, on average, about $100 of
wagers.

Make a few of these an hour, and the long run becomes much longer.
Actually, at red, you might not even get there.

I would reccommend determining your EV, and from that setting aside a
small amount for tips before you begin to play.

Better yet, don`t tip.

To illustrate the costs of tipping and the effect on the long run,
I`m gonna use a little old-school math (TH is already rolling his
eyes), but I think it will help emphasize the point.

Step 1: For simplicity, we`ll full Kelly bankroll as a starting point.

Variance/win rate = Full Kelly Bankroll.

I don`t have the numbers on me, but I`ll assume with a 1-5 spread,
d10, RO6 single deck game, an SD around 20 units (Variance 400
units). And a win rate of about 1.5%

So..

400/1.5= 266 units, about a $1000 bankroll at red, single deck, with
a 13% risk of ruin.

At this game, you might make about 2 units an hour.

$10 an hour.

Let`s say you give $1 to the cocktail girl per hour, and $1 to the
dealer every 15 minutes of play.

Your win rate is now $5 an hour, but it gets worse.

Counting is about the long run, going back to our original formula,
you have effectively cut in half your EV and are now betting twice
Kelly.

You will go broke.

So, to compensate...you double your bankroll. OK, so now we`re
playing with a $2000 bankroll, making $5 an hour, with the same 13%
ROR.

Let`s look at the long run now.

Situation 1: 266 units/ .015 (gain per hand) = 17,733 rounds.
Situation 2: 533 units/ .0075 (gain per hand) = 71,067 rounds.

These are the amount of rounds you must play to be within one
standard deviation of expectation. As you can see, those little $1
tips double your bankroll requirements, and quadruple the long run.

If you wish to prosper by counting, please be very carefull with your
tipping.

And if nothing else, please remember that every tip costs you 100x
that in wagers.

Best,
Syph

(Those are all crude approximations, but I believe the essence of the
message is correct.)

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Hey ... thanks for the feedback.

Provided you know the cost of tipping, and are prepared for the
consequences, I see nothing wrong with what you are doing.

That said, I`ll pass on some of my thoughts on this subject, for
anyone who might be interested. These are just quick thoughts that
flashed in my mind as I was reading your post, and thought I`d jot
them down.

1) Tipping on BJs. I would recommend not doing this. Essentially, it
is all too easy to turn a 3:2 game into a 6:5 game.

2) Don`t tip the cocktail waitress. Mean, huh?

3) A dealer realizing that you are counting is a BAD situation. Not
for reasons of exposure...most backoffs come from above. But because
of the erroneous views dealers have about counting. Suddenly they
become your partner...and that partner expects something. I had to
back myself off at a few places because I made the mistake of
befriending the dealers. They`ll give you that extra hand, with a
wink and a smile, but if they don`t get their share...it can get ugly.

4) If you are making the dealers happy with your tipping, it has been
my experience you are no longer playing a winning game. $5-50 is a
dangerous game, not from the spread, but because the fluctuations at
single deck can be incredibly fierce. I had many cases where I won or
lost $1000 over the course of an evening. A dealer will NOT be happy
with a few dollars when good fortune swings your way.

5) On fitting in with the environment. Careful not to identify too
much with it. I`ve had both dealers and ploppies hate me, and while
it`s unpleasant...it is not as unpleasant as spending hundreds of
hours playing to make them happy.

They`re never happy, anyway.

6) Remember it is not your job to pay a dealer`s salary. That`s what
the ploppies are for :)

7) Mistakes will happen, the effect on the long run is minimal if you
are playing a competent game. Tipping can be devastating.

8) On wearing out a welcome: Well, you`re playing against the clock
as a counter. How much time do you think tipping is going to buy you?
On this note, I`ve had dealers inform the pit boss, and other
dealers, that I was an evil counter because I wasn`t tipping
them...not once did that ever result in a back off. I`ve also been
extremely gracious in my day, and the tap came. In short: backoffs
come from above.

9) Related to above...In the example I gave in the previous post.
Tipping resulted in increasing the long run 4x. Given that...would
you rather turn 2k into 4k over the course of 700 hours. Or turn 2K
into $32,000 in the same period (assuming the same fixed percentage of your EV is NOT given away).

I`ll put it another way. To turn 2K into the same (we`re talking theoretical, EV here) $32,000 with tipping will take...2800 hours. I think an argument could be made that by NOT TIPPING, the quality of everyone`s life may ultimately be better. The long run will be reached sooner, the bankroll will multiply faster, you have a better selection of games to play, and then you can afford to tip. Not only that, your exposure will be minimized, allowing you to play longer at these levels.

A common problem, one that Arnold (sorry to name drop) warned
me about...often a young counter will ruin his chances at playing
high stakes because of all the exposure he received at lower stakes.

Anyway, those are my rambling thoughts. If they do not not apply to
your situation, or if they are not useful, please do not give them a
second thought.

Good cards,
Syph

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Please feel free to correct any errors I might have made, I believe the gist of it is correct ... even if a few details have been fudged along the way.

And I suspect this topic is just about warn out, eh?

Best,
Syph

(That said and done, I could never help but tip a few dealers I was rather fond of. We all have our weaknesses ...)

I think you are making a good point about comps. I was going to comment on it on my post above, but thought it was long enough at the time.

I do think you should consider the value of your comps in making decisions about tipping. I think this is a fair arrangement: the casinos take care of the players, and the players take care of the help.

Also, I do think tipping be part of a strategy that can help get higher ratings and better comps. It is one of the ways you can get back some of the money that goes out in tipping.
At one time, I did track my comps and compared them with my tips, and was usually ahead.

Now as to whether or not I consider comps as part of my EV? To some extent, there are two kinds of comps. Some of them merely offset expenses. Others actually bring an additional tangible benefit.

I don�t consider the expense-offsets to be part of my profit or my EV, nor put it into N0. (Here we are talking about room comps, and my own food, etc.) If I did, I would have to list it twice: once in the expense column, and second in the income side. Since these cancel, I just don�t consider them

However, some comps do more than simply wipe out expenses. The most obvious is cash-back. I do track my coupons separately, although many of them are from VP. . There are also things like show tickets and gift shop comps that have some value. Also, some food comps do more than eliminating expenses. If I am on trip by myself and get my own food comped, then it simply offsets an expense. But if I can take several friends and family out to a nice restaurant, then ti has additional value. Yes, your EV and SCORE go up if you factor these in.

I do take them account in a subjective way in making games lection and betting decisions, but I haven�t formalized it that much.

Your wrote:

Tips do not get you more comps, just as comps don't get the dealers more tips, but if you count one as an EV/SCORE loss, you must count the other as an EV/SCORE gain. Otherwise just stick to the results of the game and don't count any of them towards anything in your accounting (that's what I do).

First, let me talk about tips getting more comps. Comps are usually based upon you average bet. The average bet is determined by the pit, and there is some subjectivity in the process. Take a guy who spread for 25-200. You could call his average bet $50, you could easily call it $50. If they really don�t like you, they could call it $30. If they really like you they could call it $150.

Tipping is not the only component of being liked, but it is a factor. Players who do not tip will get lower ratings, in my opinion.

Now as to the counting. It is hard not to count tips. Suppose you got the casino with $3000, and you bring home $3750. What is your profit? Most of us would put down $750. In reality, it may be $762.50, combined . with a $12.50 tip. But I think most people would call that $750 profit.

AS I noted, I do count those comps that have a hard cash value-like cash. Match-plays and non-negotiable chips get counted into the BJ results in a way similar to tips. The money won is reflected in the cash.

The problem with counting the other things is that their value is subjective. How much is the steakhouse really worth? I don�t you think you can count the sticker price for a number of reasons. One of which is that it would give me an incentive to over-eat! Another is that the prices are inflated to being with. If chose a steakhouse meal instead of a buffet, you actually lose cash, because you have to tip more.

My employer provides me with a life-insurance policy for a year of my salary. Now that is worth something. But I don�t treat it as part of my compensation. I would not purchase it if it were an option. (My estate is already much bigger than that.) But I recognize that it is a fringe benefit.

On the other hand, my employers contributions to my retirement plan is the equivalent of a cash contribution, and so should be treated he same way.

Free Vacations are a fringe benefit of AP, and am important one. But I don�t consider it part of my base pay.

MathProf wrote:

However, the thread below reinforces one of the strongest arguments of the anti-tippers. no amount of �reasonable� tipping will satisfy a dealer. You draw just as much grief form a reasonable tip as form no tip.

I know you are not speaking for yourself but this not a true statement at all. Every dealer appreciates anything and if they don't, then those are the bad dealers that are being put into the anti-tippers mind set. Now they think ALL dealers expect you bet the farm for them.

As far as my thread goes, some submissions came across like I was angrily scolding them for being cheap. I don't want involved in another thread, but I was only stating the industry standard, not what I expected. You are fine with not tipping that much, considering the company we're in. It just seemed to come down to the people who will help will. While others are just dead set against ever giving a penny the rest of their life. There just doesn't seem to be a middle here.

In the past, you played and hour, asked for a small meal from the snack bar and got it without question. This may be getting phased out. At the casino I work, (Grand Victoria, and a MGM Grand/Mandelay Bay property) it used to be something like that. Now you must have enough points to redeem in order to get it. Our comp structure is like this:

Avg bet $25 points recieved per hour on BJ---1.25

Comp points for a snackbar -- 9
Steakhouse points -- 80 (I think)

--------------------O U C H------------

This kind of comp system, may be coming to a casino near you. I don't like it, you probably don't either. This may be the future of comps though. Of course, I think you still get mailers for stuff though.

On a side note concerning this thread, MathProf wrote:

First, let me talk about tips getting more comps. Comps are usually based upon you average bet. The average bet is determined by the pit, and there is some subjectivity in the process. Take a guy who spread for 25-200. You could call his average bet $50, you could easily call it $50. If they really don�t like you, they could call it $30. If they really like you they could call it $150.

Tipping is not the only component of being liked, but it is a factor. Players who do not tip will get lower ratings, in my opinion.

It depends on who is rating you. Some floors are duel-rate, meaning they are a floorperson, one or two days a week and dealer the other days. While some floor are married to a dealer in another pit. So, you can fill in the blanks on this one. 25 - 200 spread (since you'll be playing 25, 50 most of the time) will probably get you a 50 dollar avg.

Let's assume we as counters have a 1% advantage. So if we wanted to earn $1 as a tip for the dealer, we could risk two, $50 wagers in order to average a $1 return as a tip. Or we could risk ten, $10 wagers for the same EV return.

Seeing it this way puts it into a different perspective for me. That's a lot of work, time, effort and financial risk. Therefore, I'll be tipping less hereafter.

When Richard advocate tipping 10% of every blackjack, he didn't make that exclusive. He didn't say "Tip 10% of your blackjack winnings and nothing else." He was just giving an example of what to tip on one particular hand.

You need to understand that dealers think we can tip away 10% of all our winnings and still make $1500 a week. He may try to deny that's what he meant, in the light of the math you've presented, but just go back and read the thread in context.

ETF

have been made clear :

This is not new. It is the comp system that most of the casinos in the country are going to. Most, but not all, give the player an account in which they put comp dollars. These dollars then may be used to purchase comps.

I do agree that their comp schedules are often tighter than in the past. However, they often allow the player to �bank� comps, and spend them on later trips. Sometimes, you can bank them across properties. That is, you can �earn� comps and then spend them in Vegas, etc.

Also, sometimes the Hosts can overrides the comp balance and issue comps in excess. I think you are more likely to get this if you are a big loser.

With these kinds of system, it is important to know what comps do not count against your points. Usually, trips to the VIP lounge do not. Sometimes hotel rooms don�t. Most mailers do not, but again, you need to check at that specific property

If I understand your post, it looks like your store comps 5% of action. This is very low. I think 10-20% is more typical. Also, my understanding is that your casino is NOT integrated into the Mandalay One Club, so I presume that your comps cannot be taken to other places. In my opinion. that does make your place �tight� on comps.

who sets this standard? Is it the same people who have raised the "industry standard" for tipping waiters from 10% in the l960's to 15% in the 1980's to 18% today? (inspite of inflation creating an automatic indexing effect on tip income).

There is no "industry standard" for tipping dealers...because it's entirely optional. If you're playing 21 for a living the industry standard for tips is ZERO. That said, I average between $3.50 and $4.50 per hour in tips for dealers...this year that's about 1% of my actual hourly earnings.

I play green to low black, but haven't played in quite some time.

I'll toss out a red from time to time, but not on a regular basis like once an hour, or once every 30 minutes. Sometimes I tip when I leave the table, I simply have no set tipping formula.

If, when I tip, the dealer simply bangs the toke on the collection box and does not take a moment to thank me, the tipping is over. It would matter not if I won the chip tray, no more tipping.

I don't respond well to hustlers, and recall once when it was so blatant that I brought it to the attention of the pit, then left.

Rude dealers get nothing, and I leave the table as soon as I can find an opening elsewhere, or if need be, leave the casino. I might even mention to the new dealer that his/her coworker must be having a real bad day. As tips are pooled, I refuse to tip after having any negative experience with any dealer. I don't play to get hassled, hustled or have my gaming experience ruined.

Tipping is negative EV. If dealer's think they're entitled to a tip, they're in the wrong business.

A great time to place a tip bet is when the C is monsterous. Just place a max bet in the circle, a large bet in the Lucky Ladies circle then a $1 bet above all for the D. Catch a 20 on one of them and the D is taken care of for a long time. Most dealers don't even realize we can place a bet for them on Lucky Ladies. They usually have to ask a pit stiff.

But did you make a mistake?

So giving up 1/3 of your EV raises you N0 by a factor of (3/2)^2, or about 2.25. It would take you twice as long to get into the Long Run, and you would only make 1/3 as much profit when you did.

should that read?

you would only make 2/3 as much profit

~Regrettable Tipping Thread~

Maybe and maybe not. Some threads bring out the very core of a post'er. The words they use, the view they have, the numbers they build from, the picture they paint, all give insite as to who is on the other end of the computer. If you ever wondered about friends, foes, newbies, pro's, and spies ~ posts like this show you every detail. Yes, fighting and flaming are bad, but in the after glow there will be a who's who of BJ21.com

-so where do you see 'MathProf' after reading his post you refer to?

I think we should keep our thoughts of other post'ers to ourselves, keeps the flame wars under control that way. Still, it's good to know who you can trust brfore getting too close(letting someone know where you play, show your face, ect...). I am new to talking about my BJ playing/winning on boards, so I'm still feeling all this out. To help with this task I have been using the "search" feature a lot. It helps cut through all the crap's, poker, and BJ advice.

With that said I will go and break my own rule~~~
As for what I think after reading the above post by him, that would be hard to say. Before reading that post I read over 100 of his other posts dating back 3 or more years(his and other reg post'ers that seem to know what they are talking about and stick to the point with their facts). So where do you see "MathProf"? From what I have read I would say that he would be your Best Friend, that is if your looking to win more than you lose and want to know the real reasons why...