Red7 or KO

I mostly play poker at casinos, but I like to have BJ diversions at times.

I remember when I first strarted playing cards. I thought I would be able to glean all the information by using an advanced count and hundreds of indices. I even went as far as thinking I might be able to promote Sklansky's Key count! I've now come to the conclusion that if I want to enjoy the game of blackjack I should probably just use a simple but powerful count.

I was practicing Hi/Low the other day using CVBJ, but I couldn't get the TC to agree with the way I counted. After a couple hours of agrivation I wound up looking a the Red7 count. Since it only counts two cards more than Hi/Low and it doesn't mess with TC I thought what the hell I'll just switch to Red7. But then it occured to me that KO is practicaly Red7.

So which one works the best for a player who can play single decks, but may also play 2 and 4 decks. I don't own KO blackjack so I couldn't compare them myself.

(Maybe if I learn a real simple count like Red7 or KO I could actually have some brain power left to do weird strategy side counts for a single deck?)

honestly it sounds like you should stick with poker. There is to much bull Sh** that goes on in the world of Blackjack. If I knew then what I know now about Blackjack I would have never ever ever got involved. But hey if you want to join the crowd that's up to youuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu

of bullsheet.

Don't listen to him KO sucks and probably was written by the casinos themselves. The truth is the KO system is extremely high risk to your wallet. You'll never get off the ground with it. My advice to you is not to listen to him. Personally I think cptnx gave you the best advice. But if you can't except that then you'll have to learn the hard way.

Don't listen to him KO sucks and probably was written by the casinos themselves. The truth is the KO system is extremely high risk to your wallet. You'll never get off the ground with it. My advice to you is not to listen to him. Personally I think cptnx gave you the best advice. But if you can't except that then you'll have to learn the hard way.

No offense, sean, but Orange County KO has KO in his handle which, I presume, refers to his count of choice. And given that Orange County KO is perhaps the top advantage player at this site and the undisputed champion of the Post of the Month contest, I think that your opinion must be wrong.

I don't use KO anymore, but the independent research shows it gets the money. The inaccuracy inherent in any unbalanced count is offset by the added precision that comes from counting sevens.

One thing though:
Neither Ken Fuhs nor Olaf Vancura (the authors) have any ties to casinos
Didn't Vancura do some consulting work for some gaming corporation?

Well I took a look at the link you posted and saw that KO was in fact beating red7 so I went out and purchaced KO from Boarders Books downtown just to see what I was missing.

When I simmed them Red7 slightly edged out KO at a single deck, both were using Sweet 16 at most. They are very close though. It's a toss-up to me. I haven't simmed a 6-deck game yet.

I won't go in depth, but Red7 TBA = 0.643; KO TBA = 0.524

CV (I must be bored)

One of the authors designed slot machines for the casinos so they could steal the money of gullible senior citizens. You will see a lot of shills on these forums telling you to buy some useless blackjack book, when they know that card counting is no longer effective against real world casinos. Remember the ones who own and post on these forums profit from selling card counting books to greedy gamblers looking to beat the casinos.

I have to agree with Sean. The KO System performs well at home but in any casino environment it is extremely risky to use the "KO System" which requires very large bet spreads and a very very large bankroll. As far as Ollie and whatever the other ones name is, they mind as well have been the casinos who written this book because it is indeed the perfect strategy to lose an awful lot of money in real casino play.

.

In single deck BJ, the flaw is quite managable. In double deck the
effect almost reaches even steven. IN the other multi deck games,
it takes a lot of dumb luck to beat the edge and the flaw.

KO, Red 7, Hi-lo and the other popular level one counts perform pretty much the same, especially for someone who only plans on playing on an occasional basis. One count will out-perform another under specific game conditions, and under different conditions another count will take the lead. The margin is never really significant.

KO has only been around about 5 years, but it has rapidly become the second most popular count, behind Hi-lo, which has been around nearly 40 years.

Regarding your sims, how did you count the 7? Since most simulators don't consider suit, the usual kludge is to count all the 7's as .5. However, this is actually more effective than just counting the red 7's, and may explain why Red 7 out-performed KO in your sims. Of course, nothing prevents you from counting the 7's this way yourself, although this makes it more complicated (and technically a level 2 count), which is what you were trying to get away from.

Bottom line: Either count will get the job done. KO might be a little simpler to use, since you just count all the 7's as 1. Also, the KO preferred matrix ties all the strategy variations to only three numbers, making it easy to learn and use. Besides, you already have the KO book. :-)

For some reason, a lot of people like to badmouth KO. I guess they feel that something that simple can't possibly work, or maybe that one cannot be a "real" counter without using a level three count and memorizing 200 indices. Whatever. The truth is, KO has been thoroughly tested, both in billions of hands of computer simulations and hundreds of thousands of hours of actual play, and as I stated above, it has proven to be about as effective as any level one counting system.

KO works as well in casino play as any other level-one system. It does not require a spread any larger than any other system requires. Its betting efficiency is slightly higher than Hi-Lo, which means it identifies when to put the money out with the best of them.

Dont pull the trigger too quick defending KO. I have seen several biased sims posted on the internet as well as software. BJRM grossly estimates KO's win rate to keep up with the most powerful counts known to man. This is far from true, a mistake in software perhaps. Keep in mind that many also confuse KO with KO preferred.
It's not a bad count for the amatuers or recreational players, but for the serious you best move on to better things.

Hi-lo is more efficient than KO. Of course you may be talking about the modified KO were you convert the pivot numbers to a true count and use 50 or so index numbers. This kind of defeats the purpose of what KO is known for, which is simplicity,no?

My advice to you is to bring that book right back to the store where you purchased it from and demand a refund. ah ha aaha

It's not just "greedy gamblers" who buy these books Mr. Trump. It's also desperate people such as elderly, poor and disabled who buy these books hoping to make an honest buck. But you the corrupt casino owner and operators are just as guilty cause you and these corrupt authors deceive and rob the money from these people. You are real world criminals and should be put to shame.