Is it normal for a bj game with burn card rules to burn two cards? (one burn card for every start of the round and another burn card everytime before the dealer starts hitting?)
Played with such rules (8 decks but use up all the cards possible in the shoe) last night in an underground casino.
At my casino we don't even burn a card when we switch dealers. Other casino will double burn if the dealers switch at the first hand of the shoe.
However, don't concern yourself with burn cards and "changing the order of the cards". This rule in the casino in which you played was obviously made by someone who believes in this nonsense. I don't know your level of play so I'll just say it. Counting aside, you are going to get 2 random cards out of the shoe and so is the dealer. Where do people "get" that there is some magical order in which the cards are set? If this were true, why do we ever need to count again.
Now I will say for the purposes of counting that these are 2 cards that you don't get to see to count them, but just think of them as cards not in play. Much like the back of the shoe that you will never see as well.
this casino, being an illegal one, does not get that many players..there are usually only 1 or 2 players in the bj table (most prefer other games) thus burning 2 cards every round just like a described earlier, decreases actual penetration and the accuracy of my counting. i lost big last night at this 8deck game
If I read your post correctly, they deal all of the cards in the shoe, but burn a card at the beginning and after each round. This means you are playing in a game that effectively has a penetration of 6.5 decks out of 8 if you are in a heads-up game. That isn't bad for an eight-decker, but it isn't great. If you are in a game with one other player, the penetration increases to 7 out of 8 decks. Three players gives you penetration of nearly 7.25 out of 8. This would be great. Four players gives you penetration of 7.4 out of 8, which is fantastic. It is hard to know the value of this game since you didn't post the rules, but it has good potential based on penetration. However, being an underground casino, you may not be assured that there isn't cheating going on. Are you sure all the aces are in the shoe? Do you see them break the new decks, spread them out for all to see and wash and shuffle the cards? Are you sure a big win would be paid?
If you are confident you aren't being cheated, I would suggest that you bring some friends with you to play this game. Of course, in an underground game, you need to consider what might happen if they figure out you are counting cards.
bestfriend,
The situation you descibed, where the dealer burns a card each round, can really kill the effective penetration. Furthermore, the problem is exacerbated as the number of players decreases, so the worst case is when you're playing one hand head's up against the dealer.
For example, assume after the shuffle that the dealer cuts off only one deck. At first, you're thinking, "Wow! 7/8 is 87.5% penetration! This is a candy store!" Now if you're playing one hand head's up against the dealer, then on average you and the dealer will each use 2.7 cards, for a total of 5.4. However, since the dealer also burns a card each round, in fact you'll be using on average 6.4 cards per round. Thus, the effective penetration will be 87.5%*(5.4/6.4) = 73.8% (assuming my slide rule didn't slip!), rather than the 87.5% you thought you were getting. Your candy store has given your wallet a cavity!
One way to ameliorate this situation is for you to play as many hands as possible. In the above example, if you play 7 spots against the dealer, then on average 2.7*(7+1) = 21.6 will be used, plus the extra burn card. Thus, the effective penetration will be 87.5%*(21.6/22.6) = 83.6%, which is like getting 6.7/8 penetration without the extra burn card.
Hope this helps!
Dog Hand
Cheating is a possibility in this casino. But it's hard to prove they do cheat.
But i have reasons to think that they don't: the dealers are clearly unprofessionals because they commit so many errors, usually to your advantage, in counting and paying you, and other rules pretty much standard (S17, DOA, DAS, LSR, Insurance) plus they allow you to hit as many times as you want after splitting aces! This shows that they are not even sure with what they are doing.
What are the table limits?
About 5min and 100max in US dollars
The dealers don't have to be good for cheating to take place. All that needs to happen is the removal of some cards that are beneficial to the players, such as Aces. If there are Aces removed from the shoe, the dealers can be as clumsy as Gomer Pyle and it wouldn't matter. The players would be screwed.
To make any appreciable amount of money, you need to play multiple hands in this game, using a full apread of $5 to $100 on each hand. That helps you out by decreasing penetration for each extra hand played and by allowing you to get the money out. Of course that assumes you can spread to more than one hand and that you don't have to double or triple the table minimum to do it, and, as has been said, you aren't being cheated.
...Why would you want to play a game like this in the first place? First of all, it's not a legal game, so any disputes you might have with the house will most generally not end up in your favor, IMHO, and you actually might wind up in physical danger if you were to dispute anything. The cheating elements exist all too easily, and you could be the "mark" for the night.
I read in Uston's MDBJ about how he attended a private blackjack game at the invitation of an acquaintance, only to be ripped off by the house AND the acquaintance until he got wise to the cheating.
Personally, I would never be involved in this kind of game, it's just too risky.
JFWIW.
Regards,
drumz1
"However, don't concern yourself with burn cards and "changing the order of the cards". This rule in the casino in which you played was obviously made by someone who believes in this nonsense."
They way I understand bestfriend's post, the game brags about 100% penetration. The odd burning rules disguises the penetration, which Bootlegger elaborated on.
What I don't understand is the motive for this joint to do this. Any person who knows or understands the significance of penetration shouldn't be welcomed in the first place.
From what i've heard, they always pay. I dont think they would dissatisfy their "few"(as compared to a real casino) customers because their business is too risky.
Going there is more convenient for me.. It also helps me to practice counting at a different environment.
How much is big for the loss that you stated? I hope I'm not prying too much.
Bout a hundred bucks
