play conservative or aggressive?

This is from Robert.V.luxs interview with Kevin Blackwood at rge

Q#8: Maintaining a good camouflage at the blackjack table is, by far, one of the most important factors in winning blackjack. On your web site, www.kevinblackwood.com, you write that you have been "showed the door" more than 200 times. What are your comments on this? Do you prefer technical aspects more than strategic features?
I never relished getting kicked out, but I viewed it as an occupational hazard. If you are a winner, it is hard to camouflage that fact. I tried to move around a lot and visit out of the way places, but the top players will always be scrutinised and often will be booted. I saw far too many counters who played double deck and shoes with very small spreads. It's extremely tough to succeed that way, and I'd much rather win and occasionally get barred than to be a marginally profitable player and never get heat.

this seems to go against the usual advice of playing conservative to avoid heat.Such as Don Schlesingers advice on never raising after a loss or never decreasing after a win(which i think is ultra conservative and bound to lower your win rate a lot)

Is the conservative advice just for players who can only depend on a limited choice of casinos?

do top players who do the hit and run style(ie playing a casino only once every 1 or 2 months)play aggressively as even if they get shown the door,they can always go to another casino,or even try there again in 2 months on a different shift?

I don't know about all players in all places, but most of the top players I know have a pretty aggressive style of play and they take the barrings as they come as part of the price of doing business. It is a rare player who cannot come back for more after being shown the door at a casino. Each player handles this is his own fashion, but the successful ones are able to return again and again.

Their approach is one that is designed to maximze profits in as short a period of time as possible. From their perspective, to lower one's profit potential just to avoid barring is counter-productive. Most camouflage is a waste of time and money and they will figure you out based more on how much you take out of the casino than just about anything else you do. It consumes time playing for low profitability that could be spend playing for a higher return, even if more barrings occur as a result.

This is not the only viable approach to the game, but it is one that is often used by higher-level players.

I would think you'd have to perform a self-evaluation of what type of player you are. Are you a red, green, black or purple type?

Obviously, you'll get more scrutiny when you start tossing black and purple. I don't think a conservative style of play at this level is the way to go...I am not at this level, I play green to light black.

You also made a good point about the limitations of gaming venues that provide a limited choice of casinos. Well, if you live in or near Philadelphia, MS, you have two choices, or drive to Vicksburg/Tunica. I suspect you'd wear your welcome out quickly if you hammered them time and again at black+ action, or played too frequently. Others probably have worse choices, or must suffer with FW or MS in Conn. Worse yet, AC.

My thoughts are that aggressive play in short stays is the way to go in order to make serious money at this game...I'm more of a recreational player, though I take the game seriously, my stomach can't take the purple action, which I have only done on rare occasion. I recall my first bet of $400 playing SD in Wendover...caught the snapper...nice memory.

With LV having some 100 casinos, I'm sure that a well created spread sheet allowing one to review his/her play would allow for longevity and not get shown the door too often. "Rotating" among LVs venues, and not returning twice to the same place in a reasonable period of time would provide a brighter life-expectancy. And, though a boring drive, Laughlin and Mesquite provide additional opportunity.

I suspect play of one hour or less, perhaps avoiding obvious activity such as mega-spreads, and some fair cover would allow LV to be a virtual playground for the non-greedy, smart, hit and run type player. It's tough to get up and leave when you think things are going well, but that's part of the "serious" player...discipline

BTW, good post, here and about ROR.

Regards,
Wildcard

I will say he has responded to a couple of questions by standing by his conservative approach, regardless of bet level. As Bootlegger has stated, perhaps he is in the minority, but I tend to agree with him.

The Schlesinger approach is good assuming all possible conditions and bet levels. Given specific conditions the advice can be distinctly sub-optimal, particulary for red chippers.
Now, I think if you are going to play blackjack seriously you should be basing cover on a relatively sophisticated assessment of the competence and interest level of the pit. It is similar to a game of poker. It is even possible to analyze the cover game with the pit in game-theoretic terms, creating optimal strategies for specific situations.

I would think you'd have to perform a self-evaluation of what type of player you are. Are you a red, green, black or purple type?

Well when i started playing i was red chip,only played for a while and just broke even.But i realised that my BR was too small.so now i have stopped playing until i save up and have a comfortable BR and i will keep practising at home until i can count without even have to think about it too hard.Ive heard too many stories about players crashing too fast because of a low bankroll.

It seems that the style could be proportional to the amount of casinos(playable ones) in your area.

If i lived in Vegas i would be able to play more aggressive.also the casinos i play are smallish so even wonging in is not really an option.

Seems like people who have a low density of casinos around them have a tougher time.

how do other players in similar situations make the most of it?I also relly fell the need to learn shuffle and ace tracking to try and make the best out of a bad situation,anyone else feel like this?

I play where there are alot of small casinos. Also, there are several places with roughly equivalent games. My approach for MY situation is to play as aggressively as possible until I get barred in enough places that it starts to make an impact. I do play more conservatively in the few places that regularly have good promotions (coupons and/or $ added tournaments, etc). I believe that the easiest way for a beginner to accurately judge heat is by testing your boundaries. After all, that's what my kids do to determine my tolerance levels. I know that some people don't have many places to choose from, but I would think that getting barred on one shift at one casino would not put a major restriction on most people's ability to play.

...has your approach led to a backoff or barring, so far?

I would guess the number is small, since many of these small joints I find are more likely to change a game than bar.

I once took a female with me strictly for cover. I taught her BS and we worked out hand signals for betting. We then went to the Rainbow Casino in Vicksburg MS. At that time, 1997, they dealt 5.5 decks out of six, S17, LS, DOA, but had 0 tolerance for counters. We entered separately and I sat down to play, she joined later. I flat bet and she followed the signals. She was laughing and cutting up and winning. Several suits eye-balled her hard. It was so funny to see the look of confusion on their faces.

Bert

Now, I think if you are going to play blackjack seriously you should be basing cover on a relatively sophisticated assessment of the competence and interest level of the pit. It is similar to a game of poker. It is even possible to analyze the cover game with the pit in game-theoretic terms, creating optimal strategies for specific situations.

I have been thinking of this one.Say a player is spreading 1 to 12 and then notices a pit boss taking a big interest in his play.now the usual advice is to reduce spread and play conservatively but isnt this what a PB would expect you do do?Thereby giving you away.

how about just looking at the PB,saying "hello,how are you" and then increase your spread(although not neccessarily with the count).a bit ballsy but has anyone done this and what were the consequences?

As I've stated, I'm not a full-time or professional player...although I do know a few.

If you are stuck with local entertainment for plying your expertise, I would suspect that at some point you will be recognized as a counter and a threat. You would indeed have to have some impressive cover if you are to survive in a limited garden...thus my comment about LV.

If your action can only be spread around 3-4 casinos, your return will be minimal at best, even with an adequate BR, sooner or later they're gonna toss you. While shuffle tracking and ace tracking will improve your game, again, your skills are limited to the number of venues available within which you play.

If I were to take this game very seriously, I'd have to seriously consider moving to LV and ply my trade. Life on the road as a solo player isn't all free food and making money. There is a lonely atmosphere that can work on your psyche.

No doubt others will weigh in and provide more insight than I. If you're not a GC member, that would be my best suggestion...post with thought provoking questions and you'll be surprised at the answers. Don's Domain would not be a bad place to learn additional perspectives and allow you to have a broader viewpoint of where you think you are and what you want to shoot for.

Like most, I've seen some very bizzare things happen on the felt. It's an up and down experience as you are well aware. I think that in addition to learning as much as possible about the game, having a counting system down cold, you must factor in the human element of those you'll be playing amongst...I particularly recall I guy flat betting yellow chips at Mandalay Bay while having a BS card in front of him...another at Mirage betting a monster stack of purple on a green table, while watching Michael Jordan in the "high-roller" room.

BJ...a fascinating game indeed!

Regards,
Wildcard

Do you want to be a winner?

Since you're just starting out and betting small, the first and most important fact is you must have the skills to play a winning game. Not only must you have the skills, but you must be able to PROVE it to yourself. There are so many scared nickel players on the internet so worried about being barred that they huff n' bluff themselves into being a loser. Most casinos are not as bad and sweaty as they appear to be on the internet. I've chatted with pit bosses while stacking up some bets without any problem "Man,the flow is going good!!"

Here's some simple acts that cost you nothing.

1. Enjoy yourself whether you're winning or losing.

2. Have a sense of humor.

3. Act like a loose ploppy.

4. Pocket a few chips everytime you visit the restroom.

5. Buy a cocktail once in a while...even if you dont drink.

6. Get along and be nice to dealers.

7. DONT appear to be a conservative tightwad who wants to win very badly.

Follow these simple rules you might find yourself being welcome by tons of casinos.

Good luck,
TG

good advice but winning applies to everthing
There are so many scared nickel players on the internet so worried about being barred that they huff n' bluff themselves into being a loser.

I was coming up with a hpyothetical situation but talking of the internet and scared players.I realise that you are totally anti-internet gambling from your posts on the net page during the year.

Making money from bonus hustling is the easiest thing anyone could and should do,especially for red chip players to add to their bR,no arguements.Why are you so anti-online BJ?maybe you have not got the winner attitude to try it?so dont give me your take on what it takes to be a winner when you will not even try something that is such an obvious profit area.

Look, I was sincerely trying to be helpful,yet you come snapping back about this internet gambling stuff. I dont like to gamble on the internet,so what's your freaking problem? I choose to play in real casinos at real tables. Do I need to explain why that's my choice?

If I feel someone is sincerely posting on the blackjack boards and sincerely wants to improve their game, I will try to give them some helpful advice. I surely wont be dropping you anymore lines,that's my take dude.

Well maybe one line, there's 2 casinos in whole the USA that'll bar you if you spread to 6 nickels,so you better watch out for the creepy crawlers.

how about just looking at the PB,saying "hello,how are you" and then increase your spread(although not neccessarily with the count).a bit ballsy but has anyone done this and what were the consequences?

For low or medium-low stakes this is a bad idea, in the same way bluffing opponents who don't even know pot odds at low-stakes poker is stupid. At higher levels of play this kind of complicated ploy is desireable a certain % of the time, since to the crafty pit boss a sudden negative correlation with the count is even more suspicous than the positive correlation which peaked his interest in the first place.

This may be the best thread I have seen on free in years.

OddBall asked:

I have been thinking of this one. Say a player is spreading 1 to 12 and then notices a pit boss taking a big interest in his play. now the usual advice is to reduce spread and play conservatively but isnt this what a PB would expect you do do? Thereby giving you away.

We first to examine the concept of a "big spread". For many low stakes players, increasing the spread means increasing the big bets. This is understandable, since often they are up against table minimums. This fix the size of the smallest bets.

For high stakes players, the opposite is sometimes true. As one friend of mine said "I don't get heat from my big bets, I get heat from my small bets". If the casino has brought you in RFB because you are big bettor, they expect you to be bet big. This isn't gong to raise a lot of eyebrows. It is the small bets that will look strange.

Now in that context, when the PB comes over, betting small is the last thing you want to do. It is bad for the image, and will usually hurt you comp rating. So yes, play with a more narrow spread when the floor-person is there, but narrow your spread by avoiding the small bets.

for red chip players is a TOTAL waste of time and money.

With limited sites, thoughts about betting bigger in those sites later, and simply for practice one might consider cover playing red. Cutting EV at red might amount to the difference between $7 per hour and $4 so the loss is not that great in any event.