and this isn't even blackjack!
How can advantage players be so stupid to think they should learn all these strategies, win any significant amount of money, and still be allowed to play???????????? Discourage your friends and family from patronizing these rip-off businesses (all casinos!)
See story below in Las Vegas Sun.
In AC, the casinos can't kick out folks as easily, and the games are worse as a result. I prefer the cat-and-mouse system if it keeps the games playable.
RC
By "worse games", do you mean BJ, or Video Poker? These people were kicked out because the casino gave them too many comps and overcompensated them for their low EV to the casino. It seems like an easier solution would be to do a skill rating and base comps on both action and skill (aka EV), like they do for BJ. Since you are playing with a computer, all of your plays are already captured, and the computer should be able to calc skill level / EV pretty easy.
I think the casino made a huge PR error the way they did it. The incremental cost of comps to the casino is nowhere near the "retail value", so they would have had to really lay on the comps for their incremental cost to be greater than EV by any significant amount.
This would be like a casino comping a BJ player 2% of his total action (incremental casino cost approx 1%), then barring him from the premises and having security escort him off the property because he played close to BS and the HE was only 0.75%.
New Jersey is not the only model. Both Indiana and Missouri have responsible gaming commissions, who see their mission as protecting the public from the casinos. In Nevada and Michigan, the gaming commissions seem to feel that their mission is to protect the casinos from the public.
This decision is not motivated by a desire to make the games better for the public. The article explicitly stated that it was about the �rights� of the casino.
since that seems to be what any winning player in any casino game must do in the 21st century. You make your sales call, do your pitch, collect some money (maybe), then quickly leave, on to the next "house". repeat to the point of interminable boredom.
I'll pass, thanks anyway.
what exactly are you? Cant figure you out arjay. A dealer, or maybe an X fired employee,what are your experiences?
These newspaper articles are a good way to present those facts, and are not just a collection of internet fantasies.
Yeah, I count cards when I play blackjack. But I think it is important to realize what a huge obstacle it is to win significant money in today's large casinos. My friends and family limit our trips to casino/hotels (mostly Vegas) to once a year or so. When we go there we spend a lot of money and party it up as much as possible. My spreads are moderate, my demeanor is reasonably polite, so I don't care if they know I count or not - why should I? I dislike kissing up to casino management types (but you knew that already). I try not to be rude, but if they ask me not to play anymore, fine. I NEVER return to that hotel again if that happens.
Incidentally, I think no store deserves a customer's patronage ever again, when treated badly for doing nothing that is illegal or immoral. If more good customers did that (never returned to the HOTEL, not just the casino), maybe this ridiculous rudeness and barring situation might lighten up a little.
I still enjoy the banter with other good players and dealers, and I tip nearly everybody for good service. Some of the entertainment is OK, but not good enough to go there on a weekly or monthly basis, only yearly. So there you have it.
The article you mentioned was about Detroit casinos, which have nothing to do with Las Vegas.
The barred players were all long-term "comp whores". The casino was giving out very generous inducements to keep the normal suckers coming in. These people were playing positive to very low edge VP, hitting the "double points nights" heavy and taking advantage of every promotion possible (ie - smart players). The casino realized they were not making money off them.
The casinos (being the true slime buckets that they are) barred a group of these players. Bad policy? Yes. Bad PR? Yes. But technically nothing wrong with it. They realized they weren't making money on these players.
Reminds me of the story of my friend who owned a bar. Around every Christmas he would put on a huge feed. Free Food, Free Booze, Free Entertainment. Kind of a big thank you to all his customers for their business all year. People would come from all around as he put out a huge spread. After several years, he finally stopped. He was standing there one year at the party and had some drunk he didn't know hanging on his shoulder yapping in his ear. He realized that a lot of the people there he had never saw before. Some of the people only came to his bar once a year for the free feed. Most of his regular customers, who he was trying to thank, didn't come anymore to the party because it was so crowded.
As a result, no more free Christmas party at the bar. He didn't want to have to stand at the door and not let people in, trying to inforce a 'regular customer only' policy. The same thing would happen at casinos. Let everybody in and cut back on comps for everybody, or let them try to sort the customers out and offer more liberal comps to the real suckers (and some people will play the comp game of trying to look like real suckers).
I only worry that the corner grocery store never realizes the only time they see me shopping is on double coupon Thursdays, and the only time I ever buy Pepsi from them is when it is on some super sale, etc. ....
I was booted in Missouri for winning.
Your article seems to be trying to mislead everyone into believing these gamblers were barred for being pro card counters. This reminds me of the time when a gambler who frequently visits the boards was barred and backroomed because the casino claimed he was cheating at a casino poker table. Next thing you know, rumors are all over the internet saying the guy was beat up for counting cards.
I imagine there has been quite a few thieves,cheats,comp whores and drunks that have been barred and try seek advice on internet BJ boards. Unfortunateley most readers probably assume these con guys are pro card counters. Not even close.
Only believe half the stories you read about on the internet.
As one of the video poker players barred from Greektown, I'd be happy to answer any questions you have about the situation.
By the way, Greektown is currently taping over the card readers on 8/5 job and 9/7 because of their 'high payback'. Greektown can't afford the .167 % cb and .167% comps on a 97.5% and 99.17% game.
The game I played mostly at Greektown in 2002 was 8/5 bonus poker on a nickel 50 play machine. Clearly a threat.
SOTSOG, where did you get your information from? See the post below 'Greektown video poker barrings' in reply to Rocky's message.
Comp whore? I had a $4,000 comp balance wiped out, re instated to $1400 and then wiped out again. I used one tenth of the comps I earned. Hardly a comp whore.
How about the lady who was playing $1 slim pickens? Or the older couple who played video poker between hospital visits to their son? Comp whores? Advantage players? Hardly. You might want to do a little research before you make such an all encompassing statement.
Take a look at Greektown's version of the barrings. You can read on their website at Greektowncasino.net. Count the mistruths in that document. By the way, after kicking these 9 people who were such a threat, Greektown cut their cash back in half twice, cut their comps in half, took out all the good machines and taped the card readers on 8/5 jobs or better. If Greektown really kicked out 9 players so that the rest of their patrons could benefit, why strip out the remaining decent games and decimate the cash. The Greektown story is a little different than your friend who owned the bar.
Greektown only made about $7000 off of me in 2002. I guess that plus the 20 people I brought into their casino wasn't enough.
What do you mean by taping over the card readers?
You say Greektown cant afford these %?
I'm certainly sure they can. The problem is they dont like consistent winners. Besides why post these exact percentages on the board for casino trolls to check out?
The casino still has a huge advantage on the 97.5% game after cash back and comps,dont they? What's the big deal?
Rocky,
I was being sarcastic about Greektown not being able to afford to have 8/5 JOB accumulate slot club points.
By taping over card readers, I mean that the slot club card reader on their 8/5 JOB and their 9/7 double bonus has tape over the slot so that you cannot insert your slot club card and accrue slot club points. Greektown believes that these games are good enough on their own so you shouldn't get the .167% cb or .167% in comps ( which they will pull if they see fit).
I hope the casino trolls look at this post. The other Detroit area casinos are laughing at Greektown's actions and welcoming their patrons.
Not only does Greektown dislike winners, they dislike people who don't lose quickly enough for their tastes.
The game I was playing has about the same house advantage as dice with double odds. What's next, a player who throws 8 passes gets kicked out?
the casino offered 2x points and put the game on their floor. If they didn't want people to take them up on their offer of playing 9/6 Jacks with 2x points they shouldn't have offered the game and/or promotion.
weren't doing anything special except playing basic strategy. The only thing they did that was on the "professional" level was to refuse to play the short pay machines. They were backed off because of their choices of machines to play and the days of the week they chose to play them.
Any casino operating as a free enterprise should do what it can to appeal to the gambler. If they don't they may very well lose their customer. The great thing about stuff like this is that we are able to vote with our feet. If you do not like the way a business operates, you are not compelled to return to that establishment. If a business continues to lose customers, they will soon be out of business.
I am thankful that people are being made aware of what is viewed as a bad business practice but to insult your audience does not advance your case any. ("How can advantage players be so stupid...") While I would not visit this casino under such circumstances, I still respect their rights as a private property. This same right allows me to tell Jehovah's Witnesses to leave my property and not to return. In other words, "my house, my rules".
The focus of your argument should be to avoid this casino, not to attack the GCB for allowing the casino to function as a private entity.
Why kick them out? The more they keep gambling, the more likely they are to lose it. Doesn't the casino want it's money back?
