On the topic of information...

As posted a few posts down, a poster stated, "I would be surprised if the eye folks spend much time here, but then again I don't know how paranoid they really are. I rarely see what I would categorize as a card counter paranoia in the pits.

I know it's been stated before ad nauseum, but casinos really don't like card counters. This is, nor should it be, a surprising comment. Yet, there seems to be some doubt among many that casinos really are interested in the thoughts, comments, experiences, etc. of a few card counters, as they (casinos) make so much money, what do they have to worry about little ole card counters...... and on and on and on.

I do understand how it is hard to fathom why casinos feel so threatened by so few, with such a small edge, and most do it poorly anyways, but..... THEY DO. THEY REALLY DO.

SO, with that in mind I thought I'd share a little insight into the information gathering business.

Washington D.C., is the information capital of the world. What many people are completely unaware of, is that there are literally armies of staff people, employed by consulting firms, defense contractors, politicians, government committees and sub-committies, think tanks, ad infinitum.

These armies of workers are usually recent grads, many are looking to get into the government sector, funding their post grad degrees, or may just be looking to help save the world. Whatever their objectives are, they're hired to read every piece, every article, every written word, about every subject that is of interest to whomever is paying their salary. And make no mistake about it, other than those on government payrolls, these salaries are not inconsequential. They are most likely in the 70K per yr range. That's not bad, when all you have to do all day, is read, read, read.

Read what you ask?

Well maybe the company you're working for is looking to establish (or maintain) relationships in the oil business. You may read every web site in the world that relates to EVERYTHING pertaining to oil, and anything that effects oil. Period. That's every written word, written anywhere. Everywhere.

Somebody else hired by this same entity, hires armies of analyists to sift through all this information.

No, information is definitely valuable, so no one should think for a second that casinos (who are flush with cash) aren't willing to learn about their chief nemesis, the feared "card counter."

And yes, their paranoia knows no bounds.

They're here, and they're definitely reading everything that's posted on every web site. What they're doing it with it no one knows.

I'm not here to state the level of intellect that is behind the decisions that casino management makes, only to point out that they want to know everything that can affect their bottom line.

Be careful of what you post, and how little tidbits of info can be pieced together over time. Caveat emptor.

cheers
bfb

I agree with what you say that the casino industry will
try and stay on top of things that affect their bottom line,
but remember there is just too much blasted information out
there for them to put it all together and know everything
about everyone who walks thru their doors. There are too
many people out there coming and going and moving here and
moving there. They will always need customers and if they
crack down too much on people or tighten the rules of the
game, players will just go elsewhere.

attempt to assist people in their quest for knowledge and expertise. And it's especially difficult in a medium such as this, i.e., a free site, where anyone with an opinion can post their comments.

Honestly, I don't post much on the free side of the advantage player sites, as it's usually the law of diminishing returns, in that everyone is an expert, and of course, everyone is entitled to their opinion. But to sift through the noise, and to successfully navigate the clutter to find the pieces of useful information, is what motivated people do, both those wanting to learn about advantage play, and those wanting to learn about advantage players.

There are different levels of players. The casinos are only interested in lower limit players to the effect that someday they may become larger limit players. I don't know if they compile "dossiers" per se, but if I was a low limit player with designs of one day becoming a high limit player, it might be wise to understand your enemy. And believe me, casinos are not your friends.

And to your comment, "They will always need customers and if they crack down too much on people or tighten the rules of the game, players will just go elsewhere," if you think that scares them, then you haven't seen the proliferation of the 6:5 SD BJ scam. Or the Rio's version of "even pay" SD BJ, 'cause it doesn't get too much tighter than that.

No, the real reason that Math Boy and others weighed in on this has nothing to do with low limit players. It has everything to do with "high limit" players. It's a rare casino, anywhere in the US, that does not have cameras focused on anyone betting with black chips or higher, regardless of where the chips are being placed into action. And so, the less a casino compiles info., the better it is for one and all.

cheers
bfb

My point was never to disclose anything about anybody else. If you look at my post, it was really an afterthought that I should not have included (the team speculation). Clearly my mistake. The other complaint was about me "outing myself" by discussing a particular thing that happened to me, and nobody else. That I can live with, since that was at a casino I have been to once, and will likely never visit again.

However, I'm a believer in "openness" which is really contrary to what many here want, and that's ok. Everyone has their own secrets. I'm old enough to be beyond that point and am willing to tell exactly what I do if it might help someone else.

But of course, the only one I should put at risk is myself, and for going beyond that, I was wrong.

Now I think I'll go back to a place where openness is a good thing, the classroom, and continue doing what I do. :)

For those that were offended, my apology. For those that were a bit pompous, my sympathy. For those that were obnoxious, my disdain.

:)

Relax brother. No need to be defensive; we're not attacking you. I'm certainly not. I can't speak for everyone but, as I said, I've enjoyed your posts. The guys are just posting friendly reminders to be careful with some of the specifics. That's why I posted that specific quote relating to our site -- so you and others would see that "they" really are out there and are reading what we post.

Think of it this way. Not all of us live in Vegas. A lot of us play local stores and travel when work and school permit (for example, I am a full-time professional and am working on a second masters, also full-time, so I can't fly to Vegas on a whim -- not bragging, that's the story of many of us). What happens when a casino executive reads info here that there are counters at his property? Well, he sees that not only are there currently counters there but that his store is being advertised for counting. Needless to say, he or she will tighten up for a while, and some counter who had a nice thing going could inadvertently get caught up in the aftermath. Compare that to the positives of the post with the information. When you consider that you can post generalities and get the same info out, it's not much.

The other complaint was about me "outing myself" by discussing a particular thing that happened to me, and nobody else.

I posted that to you, but I wasn't complaining. You can feel free to out yourself. I was giving you a friendly reminder that these pages are accessible to all, and it's hard to imagine that many casino executives don't read this page occasionally. I would, and I assume you would as well, were we in their shoes.

I'm sure csino personnel must come here to check up on counters and they do have some incredible technology and resources at their disposal. I found it interesting though, that in an article reported on in the BJ21.com newsletter talks about surveillance training courses offered to casino personnel which apparently attempt to teach them how to catch counters and how to respond appropriately to them are usually fairly lightly attended by the large LV casinos and most of their clients come from out of town from mostly smaller casinos across the country. The article states that the casinos with the most cash and resources don't seem to be that interested in properly training their employees. It lists improper training of casino personnel as the biggest problem in how counters are treated by casinos.

A bit off topic in this thread I realize, but I found it interesting. BTW, I enjoy gorilla player's posts as well.

Didn't take any of _your_ comments as "attacks"... Thought your suggestions were made in the same way that I make suggestions to my students and others. That is, polite. Other suggestions were made in the same way that a girls mother might make them after catching the two of you in a compromising position. :) Not so polite. Supplying details that really didn't happen, etc. :)