Learning to card count-worth the effort with CSM??

I am a long time recreational player of casino blackjack, almost exclusively Vegas casinos. The wife and I take 2-3 trips a year to Vegas for vacations. I finally decided I would like to improve my blackjack skills. I'm already pretty good at basic strategy but I could still use some polishing on that. But I have gotten really interested in learning card counting techniques. I bought some pratice software (Casino Verite) and bought Stanford Wong's excellent book "Professional Blackjack" and another one, "KO Blackjack". As I was reading the books I came across references to the relatively new thing casinos are now using, the CSM. I was at the Bellagio last August and they are using pretty much exclusively CSMs on all their BJ tables. Since I never have card counted, I didn't really pay much attention to them. But now from what I have learned about them, it appears they pretty much make card counting useless.

Are all the Vegas casinos going to CSMs? If there are still BJ tables that don't use the CSMs, are they going to be so few that they will be hard to find and if they are available, it seems they would be much easier to watch for card counters since the casino won't have to watch all the other tables with CSMs for card counters. Is there any point to even learning how to card count now?

maxed out a few years ago. They are now on the decline. Only the big strip (tourist) casinos are still hanging on. Many other areas of the country that have tried them have already removed them. Many places in Vegas that tried them have also removed them.

machines. They definitely replaced four tables with shoe games in the pit near the front lobby. They may have replaced four more CSM's with 6 deck shoes in the another pit area. However, these two blackjack pits are still dominated by CSM's. The dealers are hoping this trend continues since they like having the break in the routine that shuffling gives.

Sure sounds encouraging. I'm excited about learning card counting and want to do it right. I will just avoid the places that have CSMs for now. Thanks for the responses so far.

A note. There are automatic shuffling machines and continuous shuffling machines. They are not the same. I was in vegas this past june (last time I was there) and I didn't encounter a single CSM at all. In fact, I only found one table at the MGM grand that had an ASM for BJ. All it did was make the game faster, as soon as the cut card was hit, the discards and the rest of the shoe go into the machine, and another 6 decks pop out ready to play, overlapping shuffling and playing so that there is very little "dead time".

The CSMs pretty well make the game umplayable for the counter as the dealer continually recycles the discards and they get re-shuffled into the mix instantly, so that counting doesn't work...

I played up and down the strip and did not notice any CSM machines although I did not specifically look for any...

walked through the other MGM properties. Bellagio is about 75% CSM's and on the main floor Treasure Island is 100% CSM's (with some 6/5 single deck mixed in). Mirage has a pit of CSM's in the back by the players club.

Didn't go to TI or the Mirage. Played at Caesar's, the Grand, the Luxor, etc. IE I pretty well stayed on Vegas ave, from tropicana ave (between Grand/tropicana) down to Caesar's. I walked thru the Bellagio, but it was so crowded I really didn't look very carefully, probably thought the CSMs were just ASMs since I didn't play or watch with so many bodies around. Went downtown for a "hit and run tour with my wife". Didn't notice any CSMs. was I lucky or are they too poor down there to lease 'em???

No CSMs on the Mississippi Coast that I have seen. In fact only saw one table with an ASM at the Beau. I suppose that could change. They do have the cute A-10 electronic scanner to foil the hole-carders that want to peek. But that was all I saw, except that SD is unplayable due to this 6:5 nonsense. I think it amazing that the casinos have convinced the ploppies that SD is better odds for them, without explaining the added casino advantage produced by the 6:5 payout.

At least on the MS coast, on the 6d shoe games, the only new trend seems to be H17, although there are a few S17 tables tucked in various places. S17 seems to be migrating to high-limit however.

Personally, I like 2D. But the shoe games seem to be displacing them. I just wish they'd leave BJ _alone_. Only open table last time early one evening was some combo with 3card poker as a side bet. Your first two up cards plus the dealer's up card. Slowed the game down, attracted every ploppie in the house. Couldn't decide whether to count and play or throw up. Split the difference and went somewhere else. :)

Good concentration test for counting however, with all the ploppies shouting 2, 3, I got 2 3's, I got 3 2's, what is the payoff on a flush, why does three of a kind pay more than a flush, etc... jeez... I just wanted to play BJ and relax a bit...

figure out a method and COUNT that 3-card side-bet!

I have some comments on your MS Coast information:

No CSMs on the Mississippi Coast that I have seen. In fact only saw one table with an ASM at the Beau.

The Grands still have a fair number of CSM tables. Some of the other casinos have one or two CSMs also. The Beau installed a bunch of these machines a while back, but has since removed them.

They do have the cute A-10 electronic scanner to foil the hole-carders that want to peek.

Electronic hole card readers or the older peek mirrors are pretty much universal now. Very few casinos anywhere in the U.S. still have the dealers actually look at the hole card in the traditional manner.

At least on the MS coast, on the 6d shoe games, the only new trend seems to be H17, although there are a few S17 tables tucked in various places. S17 seems to be migrating to high-limit however.

You must have mainly played at the Beau. The other casinos on the coast are all still S17 as far as I know. The games at the Beau are about half and half S17 and H17. The regular MS coast local players seem to know that H17 is bad for the player, and have resisted attempts by other casinos to institute this rule change in the past. The Beau can get away with H17 because they get so much of their play from out of town tourists who probably don't even know the difference.

EE

"Electronic hole card readers or the older peek mirrors are pretty much universal now. Very few casinos anywhere in the U.S. still have the dealers actually look at the hole card in the traditional manner."

I was really only talking about the electronic version. Most casinos I have been in (including Vegas) still use the mirror rather than the electronic scanner. The only problem with the electronic version seems to be reliability. On the last night at the Beau, I played at a $25 table and the scanner had masking tape over it. Dealer had to "peek" the old-fashioned way. I've heard others remark about this but that was the first I had seen. The "mirror" doesn't fail. But either the scanner gets dirty or the buttons break, I have no idea which, some small percentage of the time. Only down-side to this was that a pit boss stuck pretty close to our table making sure the various dealers were not flashing 3rd base unintentionally (or intentionally I suppose).

As far as the H17 vs S17 goes, I was down there about 3 weeks ago, and I played at 4 places. Beau (H17/S17 as I said, but H17 was the majority option), Grand. (same as far as I recall). IP where my son and I played a little "teamwork". I would be hard-pressed to remember exactly what the ratio of H17 to S17 was, I don't recall. I do remember that on the $5 table (that was his choice) we played H17. At BoomTown my brother talked me into playing a new game called something like Big Bet holdem, two cards per player, 3 community cards, dealer gets 3 cards with one exposed. players make two bets (one big one small) etc... So I really didn't check out boomtown carefully that trip, but the trip before it also had plenty of H17 tables which I try to avoid.

I did not visit the casinos east of the Grand (Casino Magic, Capri, etc) this trip but the last trip I also saw plenty of H17 tables. I have not seen any CSMs at all, personally. When we talk about the "Grand" I assume we are talking about the same place, on hiway 90 a mile east of the Beau? I have seen CSMs in the past, but nothing in the past 3 months that I recall. As I said, I only saw one auto shuffler in BJ. The 3-card this and that seem to use an auto-shuffler/auto-dealer still. (ie 3-card poker which I refuse to play although my brother and his wife love to offer up the casino a great profit in that game. :) )

I will also admit that I do not carefully watch for ASMs since they seem to be neutral to the game other than speeding it up, good for me, bad for the pure BS (and worse) players. I've been down maybe 6 times in the past 4 months, never encountered a CSM at all, and I usually walk thru the entire pit area trying to locate the S17 vs H17 tables first to avoid that .20% penalty.

Re: H17 all over the coast.

On my next trip to the coast, I'll check out as many casinos as I have time for to see how much H17 has spread.

EE

It is probably worth watching. When I started, I had never even seen H17 tables. My brother, wife, his wife, and I went down as a "warm up" for our June trip to vegas. We were down on the weekend so it was a matter of finding an empty slot at a table minimum we could live with. We were playing and I had a 20, the dealer dealt himself an up card and asked for insurance. "no" was the answer (tc -1). He flipped over a 6 and my brother/I said "yes!" in unison. :) we then watched him hit and get a 4, and then just over the insurance pays 2:1 line I noticed the "dealer stands on 16, hits soft 17". They had maybe 4 BJ tables in this pit, mixed with 3-card poker and the like, and all were this H17 variety. We started talking and decided "this is new, there must be a house advantage we don't know about." When I got home, I modified a simulator I wrote and ran some tests and concluded yes, this does improve the house advantage by a small (but significant) amount. We learned to look carefully at each table to try to avoid the H17s. It seems like the last time I was at the Beau this had spread significantly further, well over 50%, and while I am not certain, I thought it was significantly worse than that even, as it seemed to be hard to find more than a few clustered S17 tables.

Of course those wonderful SD games are S17. :) But who cares?

I suspect you are right about the Beau's patronage being out-of-town ploppies for the most part. I _rarely_ see anyone playing perfect BS. Or even any modified-on-the-count BS. A lot play "house rules" and hit anything under 17, a fair number hardly hit stiff hands at all. And a few are so tanked up on chip remover that they don't know what they are doing.

Interesting story. Last trip to the Beau. Playing at a $25 table. Guy at 3rd base getting a lot of heat from other players for stupid plays like standing on a 12 against an A, the card he should have taken goes to the dealer to make a 20/21 and a couple of guys raise hell. He keeps the waitress in a sweat bringing him drinks. His play gets worse, to the point that he hits or stands pretty much randomly. Finally leans over and asks me "What is the dealer's up card? I'm so dizzy I can't make it out?" About 30 minutes later, he announces "I have a 6am surgery, I'd better get home." It was 2:30am. I kept watching the papers down there for law suits about botched surgery. He claimed to be a neurosurgeon.

one of those "things that make you go hmmm..."

outside of the Beau Rivage and 1 6/5 single deck game at the Isle of Capri. All other casinos in Biloxi are S17 on all games unless there is an odd carnival blackjack game which none of us should be playing.

The Beau Rivage has 8 blackjack tables up front by the hotel which are H17 shoes. The two pits in the back are totally S17 including the 6/5 single deckers which are also S17. The Two side pits toward Noodles Restaurant are have 16 more blackjack games which are H17 but are only open on Friday and Saturday nights.

Did you hit the Grand while there? My brother has been talking about the four of us going down as we have mainly stayed at the Beau, although I have played a lot at the Grand and the IP. Is the grand sticking with S17? I'm interested as they offered the four of us two free nights down there. I'm curious whether I can play on-site or will have to drive to the IP or Beau.

I had noticed the significant number of H17 tables at the Beau and have suspected that it will be all H17 before long. A couple of years back nobody knew of H17 down there...

The IP attempted H17 when they first opened and almost went bankrupt as locals stayed away in droves. The percentage of locals in the other casinos is such that H17 would be difficult for them to pull off unless all casinos changed at once. Beau Rivage gets away with it because, like Vegas strip casinos, a large part of their crowd are tourists and conventioneers.

Regarding the Grand...I saw a bunch of 8 deck games at the Grand Gulfport and both Biloxi and Gulfport have a chunk of CSM's on the main floor. I play mostly in the HL rooms and for that Gulfport is the better casino with regard to game quality.

Sounds like I might stay at the grand, but play elsewhere...

Another question since you are always helpful:

Where have you seen SD 3:2 games in the SE? I have heard that Tunica has some playable SD games although I have not been there (for no good reason other than it is a painful drive from Birmingham AL...) I have not found decent SD games anywhere I have looked at on the MS Coast although I will admit that I don't walk every casino from front to back looking. 2D has become my game of choice as it seems to be playable (albeit with heat/attention) as nobody has (yet) tried to foist off that 6:5 nonsense on the 2D games I have seen.

6d is ok, but it is a painful experience to make any money at it, it has a big variance, and it seems that the 6d shoes offer fewer good TC conditions than the 2D games, at least when I play.

I fear that the Grand and Beau might live on CSM since the tourists like the two hotels pretty well, and based on my play (not in the HL/VIP areas) the skill level is so low (I hardly see anyone even play BS, much appear to be counting) that I doubt they care about CSM just so long as they can plop their chips down, slurp down the chip remover, and win an occasional hand or two..

I at least make it a point to visit every 6:5 table, sit down, buy in, then say "wait a minute, what is this 6:5 stuff?" and when the pit boss explains, I say "color me up, I'm not playing this nonsense." Wastes a bit of time, but also plants a "seed".

Wonder what would happen if lots of people do this? Won't work twice on the same dealer/pit critter of course. Fun to make a pit boss turn red every now and then however. :)

In Gulfport, the Copa still has their S17 D10 LS single deck game, there is an S17 DAS single decker at Boomtown in New Orleans (on the westbank in Harvey), and Casino Magic in BSL has one S17 D10 single decker...all of these pay 3/2. Ameristar and Rainbow in Vicksburg each still have 1 single deck table (s17 d10) with 3/2 payoffs (very heaty).

All of these tables are extremely crowded and don't bigger than red chip/low green chip action very well.

Tunica still has many good single deck games taking big action at Grand and Horseshoe. For low stakes there is Hollywood. Sam's has single deck but only 1 table on main floor and 1 table in HL room and both are watched fairly closely. Bally's and Sheraton are now 6/5 payoffs.

Thanks. We have no single-dk near Chicagoland at present time.
But, new poker tables r opening.