i'll ask again (re: bad line at sports gambling)

If you wager on the New York Yankees +300 vs the Detroit Tigers at a sports book knowing they made a mistake and meant to type in -300 instead would you feel entitled to demand that they honor that wager if they notify you of the error before the game starts? If you tried to argue yes on any sports gambling forum you would be (rightfully) laughed off and called a crook by every single poster on that forum.

I can understand why you wouldn't want to answer this question. It blows your argument right out of the water. Stick to baseless accusations that I'm "casino staff" because it's all you have to hang your hat on.

More like what happens after the game has been played, and you come back in a week later to bet on another game, and then are told, "Oh, that line on that game last week was wrong."

What then?

You can come up with all the hypothetical what-if this and what-if thats you want. The situation was a guy played a machine the casino offered, with the payoffs clearly posted. He didn't do anything to alter the payoffs, or use any type of mechanical device to alter the machine. He simply played the machine the casino provided and accepted the payoffs they gave.

What Law was broken?

Still haven't heard an answer to that question. Just a bunch of "If you found a million dollars laying on the ground" horsecrap.

So one more time ... What Law was broken?

... then perhaps you should reconsider playing any advantage game in the casino. After all, what we are talking about here is a matter of degree, not kind. In the instant case, the casino freely offered slot machines with skewed payouts. These payouts gave the players the advantage. A player took advantage of that and made some money and the casino kidnapped him for awhile. You believe they were right.

If that is what you hold to be moral, then you should never play a full-pay deuces machine or a 10/7 double bonus machine. When a $1 9/6 progressive gets over $5K, you should not play it. When the casinos offer double or triple cash-back points on some days, stay away from any 9/6 JOB games. If you play the horses and you see a horse that ought to come off at 9:5 coming off at 3:1, don't play that horse. If a casino is offering a 2:1 blackjack game, stay away from that game. When the count rises to +2 or more, you should leave the table. If the dealer makes a mistake and exposes his hole card to you, point out the error and ask that a misdeal be declared, or simply play the hand as if you didn't know what his hole card is. If you happen to find a roulette wheel that is off-kilter enough to change the odds, don't play that wheel.

While we're at it, maybe the casinos ought to post signs that compare the true odds in their games to the actual payouts and make it clear to each patron how big the house advantage is in the game he or she is playing. That way, if a patron engages in the mistaken belief that he or she can beat the casinos in a game like Keno, for example, he or she will know the truth. That would be the moral thing to do by your standards, would it not?

"If that is what you hold to be moral, then you should never play a full-pay deuces machine or a 10/7 double bonus machine. When a $1 9/6 progressive gets over $5K, you should not play it. When the casinos offer double or triple cash-back points on some days, stay away from any 9/6 JOB games."

In these cases, the casino made the decision to offer these odds. In the other case, the bettor took advantage of an obvious mistake. And then was stupid enough to go back there. I know if I just scammed a casino out of thousands of dollars they wouldn't see me for a LONG time after that!

How is it different? The casino (or sports book) made a mistake. The gambler knew it was a mistake and took a shot at them. And then dumb ass went back to the "scene of the crime". What did he think, that they were gonna comp him a room or something after what he did? Yeah he got treated a little rough but that's the price one pays for messing with the casino's bottom line. So I guess the moral of this story is... if you can get away with it, go for it... but understand just what you're getting into. Casinos are not nice when you pull a stunt on them even if it's their own fault. IOW if you can't do the time don't do the crime.

This post appears to be a response to another post, which I do not see. Was that post busted, so that this post is an orphan. Or is this post misplaced.

I believe that I don�t agree with your position, but I would like to know the full context before weighing in.

I originally posted the question in the "Great Article..." thread. It got buried down on the page and thus no one answered my question so I posted it up top. The context is whether the guy who played $1 slots that paid off at a $100 machine rate would be considered stealing or ethical.

As I said lower down, the guy who played the machine that was paying out 100x it's usual payout, was still gambling. Correct me if I am wrong but he was not guaranteed a win.

Red Bored please do not be abusive in your reply to my posts as I have never been abusive to you, and your post will only get busted like last time.

Yeah he got treated a little rough but that's the price one pays for messing with the casino's bottom line.

You are justifying a casino breaking the law to impress upon a player that they do not appreciate his taking advantage of their mistake? This is a mighty slippery slope you are offering. Rather than simply correct the mistake, you condone false imprisonment, assault and battery? Once you condone this sort of thuggish behavior, how do you decide the extent of what they should be allowed to do to protect their bottom line? Should they be allowed to bring out a chainsaw to make their point?

IOW if you can't do the time don't do the crime.

Since no crime recognized by the state (Nevada) was committed, this statement suggests that a casino should be given the right to decide not only what is criminal conduct, but also the appropriate punishment.

if it is immoral to take advatnage of the casino's/sports book's mistake, is it then immoral for the casino to let a player hit on 14 v 2, since that is clearly a mistake, too?

>Red Bored please do not be abusive in your reply to my posts as I have never been abusive to you, and your post will only get busted like last time.

I have never been abusive in any of my replies, and I don't know of any posts of mine which were busted. But while you bring up "abuse", how about posters accusing me of being a "casino agent" by thief protectors merely because they can't defend a thief's actions in any other way?

>You are justifying a casino breaking the law to impress upon a player that they do not appreciate his taking advantage of their mistake?

I said NO such thing. Leave it to thief protectors to twist my words and accuse me of working for the casinos when they can't justify their own immorality. What I said was that if someone doesn't think that the casino will protect its bankroll using whatever means necessary then they're incredibly NAIVE. Even if one can admit that he was "legally" right he still got back-roomed and abused. HE made the choice to scam the casino, and ended up getting abused for it, and the casino security didn't want to hear about "right and wrong" when they were dragging him into the back. I personally choose to play as straight arrow as I can because I don't want to be treated like that whether I'm "legally" right or wrong. The "law" sure didn't help him when he was being strip searched did it?

If you want to get beat up and abused to prove a point or out of general principle or because you're "right", then go for it. I prefer not to subject myself to that.

If you are a straight counter who plays high enough stakes, the backroom nightmare can happen to you. It has happened to some of the people who frequent this board for doing nothing more than counting cards. The casinos don't respect you for being a straight counter. If they think you are able to win money from them, they will treat you no better than someone who might be using other methods to win.

>If you are a straight counter who plays high enough stakes, the backroom nightmare can happen to you.

That may be true, but I'll guarantee there will be at least two security guards going to the hospital before they're able to cuff me.

If the best you can do is "that may be", then you are at best naive. It is common knowledge among APs that counters, guilty of nothing improper, have been detained, handcuffed, falsely imprisoned, assaulted, battered, backroomed, photos circulated, searched, roughed up, ejected from comped rooms and barred from further play. Many who post on these pages have been victims of these outrages. That you could suggest that such treatment is anything other than outrageous removes all credibility from your offerings. Perhaps it is time for another change of handle.

>It is common knowledge among APs that counters, guilty of nothing improper, have been detained, handcuffed, falsely imprisoned, assaulted, battered, backroomed, photos circulated, searched, roughed up, ejected from comped rooms and barred from further play. Many who post on these pages have been victims of these outrages.

You are absolutely correct, and THOSE ARE THE VICTIMS I WILL SAVE MY OUTRAGE FOR!

>That you could suggest that such treatment is anything other than outrageous removes all credibility from your offerings. Perhaps it is time for another change of handle.

I NEVER suggested that card counters or legitimate ad-players should be subjected to such treatment. Don't twist my words like everyone else has done... the subject is strictly the slot scammer. I never even said that it was right for the slot guy to be subjected to it... but that what he went through is an occupational hazard for those who pull stunts like that. OK... he got beat up and he's right... I would rather avoid the whole hassle of getting beat up in the first place if I can avoid it.

I believe your attitude might change if you were ever cuffed, backroomed, strip-searched and threatened with serious bodily harm by hired goons. Such conduct by those licensed by the government to offer gaming does not seem to offend you to any appreciable degree.

If you post that at therx, you will get laughed at because only bookies and people that kiss up to bookies post there. I don't bet bad lines for another reason. The sportsbook thinks they have a free roll on your money. I've seen a lot of times on a "bad line" (sometimes even a +120 instead of a -120) that the sportsbook will wait until the third inning until cancelling your bet when your team is up 3-0. If you were losing they probably will not cancel. Some people have had bets cancelled two days after the game finished!

I don't bet bad lines because I think it is wrong. I bet bad lines because I am afraid the sportsbook will steal from me.

Math Boy

That's exactly what I've been thinking, Bootlegger. When do you attract too much attention? That's partly what makes me leery of the $25 tables.

It depends on a variety of factors. There are plenty of mid-strip type casinos that accept big action fairly well. I think backrooming is relatively rare these days, but it does happen, and sometimes it happens in places where one would think that kind of treatment wouldn't occur. I believe this sort of thing generally happens to folks who are betting high black or purple. A $25 bettor isn't likely to get this "royal" treatment in most places. That doesn't mean a player betting green to black won't get backed-off or barred. It can happen.

The advantage to $25 tables or higher is that you can often find a good game with few players. That makes a difference. $25 tables are no big deal on the Strip or even downtown, for the most part. Of course, in low-roller joints like the El Cortez, a $25 bettor will stand out. At a place like the Mirage, he is actually on the low end of the scale.