Great Article (Thanks to BobL for posting link)

This was posted in the green chips section. But I think the more people that hear about this kind of behavior the better.

http://www.reviewjournal.com/lvrj_home/2003/Jul-06-Sun-2003/news/21616613.html

(Card counters fight back)
Some say a picture is worth a thousand words. Seeing some of those pictures really gives one a more stronger grasp on the seriousness of backrooming. Not that it intimidated me in the least bit. Still plan on taking it to them when I visit Vegas next.

Thanks for the link, and I have it downloaded & stored on a CD. I'm going to store up all the ugly stories about casinos. The CD will come in handy one of these days. I would love to shove the CD up the casinos' butts when they claim they have the right to "protect" their games by roughing & jailing card counters.

I hope Attorney Nersesin will win the lawsuits against those ass-hole-casinos for my 3 heroes: Grosjeans, Bernier & Cagno.

A side note: Why DD' was not in the story? He should be a major character in the lawsuits.

is up for an arbitration hearing in a few weeks. I think the cases in the article were better examples of abuse than mine, which is somewhat tame by comparison.

The article says that Bernier returned two nights later after winning $27,000 at a slot machine that paid off, incorrectly, way more than it should have. It says he was detained and threatened with jail if he did not allow them to confiscate his winnings, so he gave up his winnings. You mean he had that $27,000 on him when he returned and was detained? I can't believe they let him leave to go get it.

Interesting that in the Grosjean case the casino accused him of marking cards.
Hole card players need to understand that casinos don't need physical proof of card marking to suspect it and act on it, either genuinely or cynically. A tape showing a statistically significant correlation between play and hole-card is going to get you busted. The casino cazn then quite legitimately claim that they had enough evidence to suspect you were card marking even when you were using a legitimate technique.
The lesson is clear: the priority with such a large advantage is to maintain the opportunity and use deep cover.

Btw While I'm never going to take the side of the casino scum in these cases, I hope the participants in these legal ventures are aware of the possible unfavourable legal precedents which could be set for advantage players, which can result from successful or unsuccessful prosecutions.

and fighting in court is the only way to do it. If casinos are free to detain us, refuse to cash chips, etc, then we're all playing a negative expectation game.

Please take the time to write a Letter to the Editor of the Review-Journal, letters@reviewjournal.com thanking him for allowing this article to be published, and an appreciative letter to the author of the article, Rod Smith, RSmith@reviewjournal.com

Hole card players need to understand that casinos don't need physical proof of card marking to suspect it and act on it, either genuinely or cynically. A tape showing a statistically significant correlation between play and hole-card is going to get you busted. The casino can then quite legitimately claim that they had enough evidence to suspect you were card marking even when you were using a legitimate technique.

Maybe the casino can legally detain you (and I'm not even sure about that), but I'm positive Gaming would need more than "a statistically significant correlation between play and the hole-card" before they can charge you any kind of crime like card marking. They would need physical evidence.

Furthermore, I doubt there are more than a handful of casino employees who would even know what the proper plays are when the hole card is know, so we then have the potential for any bonehead, VP wannabe accusing customers of cheating. From the little I know about the Grosjean case it appears their �crime� was winning�and nothing more.

But let�s face it. This stuff is happening with the complicity of Metro and Gaming�that�s the real problem. And they should know better and they should certainly be more sophisticated about this stuff, yet they are about as professional as Barney Fife in the midst of a 4 day drinking binge. It�s really kind of sad (and dangerous) that Las Vegas law enforcement is so ignorant and careless.

It�s only a matter of time before a civilian is brutalized by these casino thugs.

Thanks lurker and BobL for the link to the article in the LV Review Journal - pretty enlightening and alarming how casinos will detain advantage players. I do see a difference between hole carding and varying your bet according to the cards that have been played. I do only the latter. Personally I have been uninvited on two occasions from playing in two different casinos. My rule of thumb has been to refrain from playing in those particular casinos for six months on different shifts, and one year on the same shift, and then play the situation by ear. Feedback?

I do see a difference between hole carding and varying your bet according to the cards that have been played ...

What difference do you see? Both are valid forms of skilled play, and both are perfectly legal.

Thanks for your opinions on American Law regarding Land Based Casinos. This from someone who lives in Europe and mainly bonus hustles on-line casios.

If anyone needs an opinion on legal matters as they pertain to chicken fighting in Manila, I'm sure they will be in touch with you.

""Hole card players need to understand that casinos

"don't need physical proof of card marking"

to suspect it and act on it, either genuinely or cynically. A tape showing a statistically significant correlation between play and hole-card is going to get you

""busted.""

The casino cazn then quite legitimately claim that they had enough evidence to suspect you were card marking even when you were using a legitimate technique""

What happened to hard evidence? I think they need to show that the cards were actually marked Mr. May. Anyone can suspect any other person of a crime. Whether or not they can prove it by a legitimate legal investigation is an important aspect that seems to be left out by the casino's. Acting on what you suspect would mean that they will investigate by legal means...not by the tactics they are being shown to use. Your innocent until proven guilty here in the USA!

The casinos are jumping the gun from "shit he won again" to "he must be cheating"...and then to... "lets fabricate a criminal legal issue and get the cops here so we can get him arrested for ugh, ugh, lets try this MOPARY".... Its obvious that there is a corrupt association between gaming/law enforcement and the casino empires of Las Vegas. I dont have to prove this allegation it is being alleged in this article and will be proven. Whew I hate it when people "come mierda".

What happened to hard evidence? I think they need to show that the cards were actually marked Mr. May

Its quite impossible to detect professionally marked cards. If the casino had to provide actual physical evidence of marks they would never catch any but all of the most clueless cheats. Read the article below and you'll see what I'm talking about. If there is physical evidence it takes time to analyze the deck.

Acting on what you suspect would mean that they will investigate by legal means...not by the tactics they are being shown to use. Your innocent until proven guilty here in the USA!

You obviously aren't black.
Most civilized countries, including the US, have a sus law. That is, you can be arrested and detained on suspicion of something. That may not be right, but it is a reallity. The law is not going to change.

Thanks for your opinions on American Law regarding Land Based Casinos. This from someone who lives in Europe and mainly bonus hustles on-line casios.

I played in Las Vegas full-time for over five years and have more experience of casino legalities than I ever cared to.
And don't kid yourself for a second you have any idea of the extent or nature of my gambling activities.

Maybe the casino can legally detain you (and I'm not even sure about that), but I'm positive Gaming would need more than "a statistically significant correlation between play and the hole-card" before they can charge you any kind of crime like card marking. They would need physical evidence.

The problem is this: you can't detect physical evidence of card marking if its done professionally (see Forte article link below you), at least not in any reasonable timeframe. You can mark cards a thousand ways and the different tests that need to be performed can take weeks or months. If every crossroader could get out of detention by saying "I was hole-carding" then the casinos would never be able to prosecute anybody, the crossroader would be in the next state before the marks on the deck were discovered.

Think seriously and dispassionately about the consequences of that. A cheat typically plays with an average advantage of around 12%, which is a win rate hundreds of times that of a typical card counter. If there are enough of them, and there would be if no serious prospect of jail could arise from the use of cheating methods, then the casinos would have to question the viability of offering hole card games. They would probably use the nuclear option and get rid of them altogether.

We have been here before, with Uston in New Jersey, and in Holland where csm's were universally installed by the casinos in response to legislation forbidding barring or casino countermeasures. Legislation arising from prosecutions by advantage players against casinos almost never works to the actual advantage of advantage players.

Please show where any case for anything was ever determined on the basis of "statistically significant correlation" in the absence of hard evidence (in the United States).

Something along the lines of ... "Yes, your Honor, we have the deck of cards right here. No, we can find nothing wrong with them, or any abnormalities at all. However, according to my Actuary here, there was a failure in the game results according to a Chi-Square test."

Thanks. Just site a case. Not really interested in the vast experience of a fool.

"I played in Las Vegas full-time for over five years and have more experience of casino legalities than I ever cared to.
And don't kid yourself for a second you have any idea of the extent or nature of my gambling activities John that is absolute BS and you know it."

May that is absolute BS and you know it.You have not played in a casino for over 2 years.so if you played in Las Vegas for 5 years then you must have arrived there 7 years ago and stayed for 5 years full time?So when did you fit in all your play in the UK,Before this?Which would mean you started playing in casinos as a teenager.

You wrote GTEABJ almost as soon as you graduated so where ever you got the time to play PRO BJ in the UK and Europe baffles me.I have been in the UK BJ scene for over 20 years and when your name is mentioned people fall over laughing at the pork pies(lies) you come up with.

And as for the extent of your gambling activaties.I know for a fact that you are just a small time bonus hustler with a tiny BR.I doubt if you can even count cards.
You really need a reality check.

Please show where any case for anything was ever determined on the basis of "statistically significant correlation" in the absence of hard evidence (in the United States).

Did I say a successful prosecution could be mounted by the casino on the basis of play? No I didn't. What I said was the casino, and the police can detain a player on that basis. That was actually what happened to Grosjean. Its a statement of fact.

Not really interested in the vast experience of a fool.

Whereas the input of a guy who's never even played hole-card is really valuable right? Give me strength.
As I recall Grosjean actually left this site citing a particulary uninformed post you made, as an example of the type of ignorance regarding next-card/hole-card techniques which made him think the posters on this site were clueless. So you're not really qualified to criticize others.

The situation you refer to actually occured on the RGE board. The rest of the facts of the incident are just as muddled by you. No real need to go into it here.

Yes, the police can detain anyone for any reason, and hold them for up to 48 hours before pressing charges, while they investigate.

Of course, such practices do leave them open to lawsuits, so any law enforcement agency that tries to rely on that as a means of enforcement will quickly find themselves in trouble.

"What I said was the casino, and the police can detain a player on that basis."

And once again you are wrong! The casino cannot detain anyone for anything, except to detain them for the arrival of the police. If they detain and do not immediately contact the police, they are opening the door for trouble.

May that is absolute BS and you know it.You have not played in a casino for over 2 years.so if you played in Las Vegas for 5 years then you must have arrived there 7 years ago and stayed for 5 years full time?So when did you fit in all your play in the UK,Before this?Which would mean you started playing in casinos as a teenager.

I did start playing when I was a teenager.

You wrote GTEABJ almost as soon as you graduated so where ever you got the time to play PRO BJ in the UK and Europe baffles me.I have been in the UK BJ scene for over 20 years and when your name is mentioned people fall over laughing at the pork pies(lies) you come up with.

I wrote GTEAB in 2000. I'm 29 now, I graduated eight years ago.
Btw I doubt an Englishman would use cockney rhyming slang, its just too naff. Its porky pies incidentally.
I suspect you are an American basing his knowledge of the English on Dick Van Dyke in Mary Poppins and/or skits on "Saturday Night Live".

Regarding the UK bj scene there have never been more than about half a dozen full-time pros in England. The game is poor (see Turtles report on the outside USA page) and the limits outside London rarely more than about �25. There really is no UK bj scene as such. The notion that gamblers would fall about laughing when my name is mentioned is ridiculous: my books aren't sold in Britain, the counters wouldn't know who I am let alone make that type of judgement.

And as for the extent of your gambling activaties.I know for a fact that you are just a small time bonus hustler with a tiny BR.I doubt if you can even count cards.

Well, you know, I never thought of myself as top of the tree but I'm beginning to wonder. If "Bringing Down The House" is even halfway true then I'm the cats whiskers.
Bonus hustling is far from small-time, but its only a small part of what I do in any case.