Funny downtown casino

I strolled into a downtown casino last week to check out their DD games.... they have a lot, decent pen depending on the dealer, but I noticed that they cut 15-20 cards off the bottom right away and burn them. I asked the dealer why they did that, because I've never seen that done anywhere else. Her reply, "Oh, that's so people can't count cards... see... that way they don't know what those cards are."

I didn't tell her that it hardly mattered since they wouldn't be in play regardless, but I thought it was funny.

I also made $300 in an hour using a $5-$50 bet spread. I made sure to thank the knowledgable dealer and tipped her well:)

What you saw was what is often referred to as the "Harrah's cut," since it is a practice that seems to have been used from time-to-time in different Harrah's casinos. Just remember that those 15-20 cards that are burned at the beginning should be factored into your estimation of the penetration of the game. If they burn 15 cards and then deal down to the point where 25 cards are left, you are getting penetration of a little better than 60%. This practice can make a lousy game appear to be a good one at first glance. Don't let it fool you.

I wandered into that downtown store, looked at the deck in the dealer's hand and thought I saw a nicely cut deck. I sat down, waited for the shuffle, and bought in for a few hundred. The dealer shuffled and tossed out over 1/4 deck and then put the cut card at over 1/2 deck pen, netting about 55% pen. I did notice all this immediately. So, needless to say, I used a wong out excuse to permanently wong out of that one before the first round was dealt. I'm sure the dealer thought to herself, "see, this magic cut does keep out the card counters!"

I made sure to thank the knowledgable dealer and tipped her well:)

Curious as to why you would tip this dealer.

he gave her a "tip">>

"honey, if you want any tokes, stop cutting the deck like that".

:)

What I would do in this situation would be to play the first round. If the count was positive, continue to play. When the count is negative, Wong out and leave.

Once you are in the casino and they are ready to deal, it doesn�t cost you anything to play the first pack.

Thanks. Your suggestion is excellent. I could have played five or ten minutes, until the first negative round, then wonged out for greener pastures. I'll do that next time I find myself in a similar situation.

In retrospect, I think I was annoyed by their cut. I knew what a "Harrah's cut" was, so I wasn't totally surprised. It was my last day in town and I didn't wish to spend it on a mediocre game. Too bad I didn't sneak in a short amount of play, though. Could have hit them with a 10-300 spread!

I tip the dealer when I'm winning. I've found that in cases where the dealers are happy with me, they become a lot more chatty and distracted (sometimes paying me on pushes) and the floorperson, either seeing that their dealer is well taken care of OR buying into the myth that counters don't toke, will leave the table alone.

As for the fake deck pen, I think it's good advice. When I go back there, I'll make a point of looking for the same dealer (if her habits are unchanged) or another dealer with similar cuts. She cut the remainder pretty thin - placing the cut card about 1/5 or 1/6 of the way into the remaining cards. Of course, if she noticed that the cut card was 5-6ish cards away at the end of the round, she'd shuffle without waiting for it to be dealt out.

Whenever I have encountered a Harrah's in an area where they are the only casino, the game has been bad. In areas where there are other options, Harrah's tends to be bad but not the worst. Basically, if their goal is to keep counters away, as much as I would enjoy taking them for a ton, they have won and keep me away. Now that they seem to be buying the whole business I fully expect places like Caesar's to eventually become just another palace of slots and other bad games with the occassional opportunity to exploit a weakness in their way of doing things, a weak dealer or one of their marketing offers.
Mike G

I worked in a tipped profession while in college, so I can sympathize with the plight of service workers. That being said, dealers have ridiculously high expectations for tips. Waiters and bellmen work for tips too, but they don't expect patrons to tip until they are literally risking bankruptcy. This leads to a problem for us. No matter what we (APs) tip, even it's ridiculous overtipping by our standards, it will never be enough for 99% of the dealers out there.

IMHO, there's no reason to tip even a single silver at a store where one will not be remembered. A penny toked is a penny wasted. OTOH, at a store where one is a regular, tipping something may be a necessary evil (opinions will differ on this point, of course). Rather than tipping small amounts regularly (which would be neither appreciated or remembered), I prefer to tip bigger but VERY rarely (once per GOOD dealer every two to three months), only following a decent win and only if the pit observes it (helpful if the relief dealer sees it, too). I'll never tip from winnings or EV. Rather, I have some cash set aside from dealer mis-pays that make up my toke fund. For example, a distracted dealer recently pushed my max-bet 18 against her 20 (not sure how, both hands were two-card hands). Anwyay, that one play will cover my tokes for about a year. I don't increase my tokes with increased overpays, either. These overpays go where they truly belong -- to my bankroll.

I fully understand where people are coming from with regard to not tipping the dealers, hell most of them don't even deserve a tip but that's another thread ;)

But when folk start worrying what the tip is costing their overall gain I dismay. I am sure these folk tip the maid, waiters/waitress', barmen, bellhop, valet, and cab drivers so why should the dealers be any different? ( if you don't tip anybody ou are of a different mindset to me and I offer no argument to your actions ) All of the mentioned people rely on tips to supplement a (sometimes) meagre income and if we were not in the casino environments working our AP magic we would not be coming into contact with them and so would not be tipping at all. All expenses incurred on a 'gambling' trip have an effect on our bankrolls, why are dealers tokes treated differently ?

If your (playing) bankroll is seperate from your (expenses) bankroll, tip the dealer and it has not cost you anything from your expected win. If however you are using one bankroll to fund everything then you will not notice a couple of bucks here and there going to the boys.

Personally when the count is high I stick an extra 5 or 10 atop my stack and if the hand wins I give the dealer the winnings (retaining the 5/10 for the next dealer and/or high count), I never offer the money into the traditional toke area and so in my own twisted way I can assume to be losing nothing from my session.

Only idea I can see for this type of "double-cut" is that perhaps they hope that putting 1/4-1/3 of the deck into the discard tray to start with will cause us to screw up our true count correction???

no tip is enough for most dealers out there. Try winning $5K and toking a single green chip or less. The gratitude will probably not be overflowing. This topic has come up a number of times, most recently about two months ago. Scroll down and check it out -- there are real numbers to go with the opinions of the people here.

Now, I'm of a different mindset than some here. I'm perfectly willing to toke a little something, just like I toke the cocktail waitress, waiters, and bellmen. Again, the problem is appreciation. I get a better response from appearing to forget the toke than I do with the "insulting" small toke. Well, I sure don't want to insult anyone.

I think that's the idea, Gorilla, but I don't see the logic - but if they think it keeps them safe, so be it.

Regarding tips, I don't play with as huge of a bankroll or as big of a spread as a lot of people here. I tend to toke between $1-$10 (dealer bet) playing $5 tables. Most of the dealers in downtown houses are satisfied and say "thank you." I agree that the dealer being appreciative is essential.

Of course, if they're *really* rude, you can always order a bloody mary and accidentally spill it on the felt before you leave. They're the worst for clean-up.

I've played at the downtown casino several times, and sometimes I spread like there was no tomorrow. However, there seems to be absolutely no heat! Has anyone ever gotten heat here?

I caught a little there at the end (or what I perceived to be heat, anyway). Like I said, I play reds, and rat-hole my greens... I bought in for $200, had that in green in my purse, and $270-ish in red stacked in front of me. I caught the suit I took to be the CSM eyeballing me trying to look like he wasn't, talking out of the corner of his mouth to the floorman who had been watching the game. I knocked over my stacks of reds into a big messy pile, played out the rest of the deck, colored up and walked.

Mind you, I've never been backed off anywhere, so this might have been paranoia on my part.

Try this link
http://www.dicedealer.com/Casino_Dealers_Message_Board.htm
which leads to this board
http://pub35.ezboard.com/bthedealerslounge

in which half the posts seem to be about who does or does not tip and by how much. To give a brief summary:

1. dealers who post here have attitudes
2. they don't like customers who don't tip
3. they don't admire customers who do tip
4. they view tips as expected income

I've visited that site several times. Always great for a laugh. Cool you reminded everyone here about it. Everyone should know how the dealers really think before they feel too sorry for them. Check out the link below....nice whiney toke thread. Best part -- they want to put a billboard on I-15 reminding people to tip the dealers!!!!!!!!

Check this dealer thread out. My favorite quote:

The main reason nobody really wants to divulge tokes is that this isn't a closed site. Players troll this site all the time and there's nothing we can do about it. How much would the average player tip if he knew we were making 4-5 times what they are? I love it when players think we're uneducated minimum wage employees. A player asked me the other day how much we made. I told him $5.15 per hour. He said yeah but what about the tips. I replied that he had been sitting at my table for over an hour - how many tips did he see (answer was of course none at that point). He made the comment along the lines of - you might be able to make an extra $5 per hour in tips so that you make $10 per hour right? I replied - "Oh man, only on a good day." I walked away with $313 for the day in tokes. This guy was tipping me because he thought he was doing great with his $12 an hour job not having a clue that I was bringing home $44 per hour. Ignorance is bliss.