Found a Hole Card Flasher

I had read about such things, but never believed it actually happened without the dealer, pit, security, somebody noticing. Well there I was today, sitting at a bj table when the dealer checked the hole card, then picked it up and showed it to me. I had to pause and think if I had really seen what I had just seen. Sure enough, when the dealer played out the hand, there was the same five of spades I had seen just seconds before.

I sat in that same seat for six and a half hours once hitting an 18, once a 19, once standing on 14 against an ace. The dealer would make sure I meant what I was doing, but no one ever caught on to what was going on.

I still ended up down for the session, but I will be back for the dealer's next shift.

Life is good.

As the Crocodile Hunter would say, "danger, danger, danger!" What you are describing goes well beyond the inadvertent flashing of the hole card by the dealer. You are describing an act of collusion between a dealer and a player to cheat the casino. If you are caught, you could be in serious trouble with the law. You may have gotten away with it this time (don't be so sure though, since a tape review may have already exposed you), but you and this dealer will get caught sooner or later. When you are, life won't be good at all.

You will end up in jail if you continue. I wouldn't go back to the same casino for at least six months.

Perhaps I wasn't clear. The dealer is not aware he/she is flashing the hole card. It is just like the Grosjean case. A dealer error that can be exploited by anyone sitting at the table. I don't see how collusion can be charged when the dealer is unaware. And I don't see how I can be accused of any crime when I am just using information available to anyone sitting at the table.

Of course the casino can do anything they want, but the Grosjean case makes it pretty clear this is a legal activity.

I would appreciate hearing more opinions.

go for it.

You make a good point about the G. case.

Iggy.

Perhaps I wasn't clear. The dealer is not aware he/she is flashing the hole card. It is just like the Grosjean case. A dealer error that can be exploited by anyone sitting at the table. I don't see how collusion can be charged when the dealer is unaware.

Yes, we did not get your meaning. You are correct, you are not breaking the law and should go for it.

And I don't see how I can be accused of any crime when I am just using information available to anyone sitting at the table. Of course the casino can do anything they want, but the Grosjean case makes it pretty clear this is a legal activity.

Minor point: front-loading has been legal for many years before the Grosjean case. As to your point about being accused, you can be accused of illegal activity. It would not be right, but it can happen. Police, Gaming officials and casino security know surprisingly little about the law, if indeed they do not cynically manipulate it for darker purposes. Even assuming no malice on their part, it is conceivably they may genuinely think you are getting your hole-card info from a cheating method rather than dealer sloppiness. For this reason you really want to make cover a priority.

"I sat in that same seat for six and a half hours once hitting an 18, once a 19, once standing on 14 against an ace. The dealer would make sure I meant what I was doing, but no one ever caught on to what was going on."

Whether you're tipping or not you're asking for trouble making plays like that. When you hit an 18 or 19 because you know the next card will improve your hand the casino will naturally think you're working a scam with the dealer and if you play his table enough times, eventually you both will be arrested. All of the testimony otherwise won't convince a judge or jury that you and the dealer were not working together especially when they view the surveillance tapes.

Besides if for no other reason why would you risk being dragged thru the casino in handcuffs, possibly beaten up in the process, spending time in jail, paying tens of thousands of dollars to an attorney, and suffer the consequential possibilities of losing your job, being convicted and labeled as a felon even if you are fortunate enough to get probation and not to go to prison.

Ignore the advice of Ignacio below to go for it, he knows not of which he speaks.

Card.

From your description, I thought the dealer was doing this on purpose. If not, then it is perfectly legal to take advantage of a dealer's mistake. However, the casino may not see it this way and there could still be a negative reaction.

One thing I would caution you about. I would suggest that you take this in small doses and not spend 6 hours or more in one session reading this dealer's hole cards.

"When you hit an 18 or 19 because you know the next card will improve your hand the casino will naturally think you're working a scam with the dealer and if you play his table enough times, eventually you both will be arrested."

As I understood it, he didn't know if the next card would improve his hand. He was seeing the dealer's hole-card, not the next card to be played, so he only knew that the dealer had a 19 or a 20 and his own 18 was a certain loser if he stayed. Thats a subtle but important difference. In the situation he was in, hitting wouldn't always pay off. Most of the time, he looked like a superstitious player or one who believed he has some "psychic" ability. Casinos love players like that.

Hitting an 18 or 19 only has to pay off a couple of times an hour in order to be incredibly powerful.

Ok, Perhaps I missread his post but I thought he was seeing the next card rather than the hole card because he also said he once stood on a 14 vs an ace......????

If he was catching the hole card then he should keep his sessions short with this dealer rather than camp out for 6 1/2 hours and not play the same dealer day after day, even a surveillance person with the IQ of a rock will eventually see what's going on if given enough time. And although hole carding is not illegal, he has to be prepared for the downside should he be discovered.

It's easy to just say "I'll sue" should he be arrested, but it's very hard to find an attorney that will take these cases on a contingency which means the player has to front a large part of the attorney fee's and other expenses and then pray for the right verdict and a favorable settlement.

Sometimes the "golden rule" applies....He who has the gold rules! And the casinos or the States Attorney have plenty of gold to spend on attorney fee's and could drain the average person's resources.

regargdless of the dealer being a hole card flasher, any AP playing the lengths of time you mention on 1 table in a single casino is asking for trouble, no matter how good your cover is.

Go for it but you will last longer and look less suspicious if you don`t hit these 18 and 19. At the advantage you are playing, you can sacrifice a few hands.

Grosjean is going to be paid, but in the state of Nevada his case was not a slam dunk in my opinion. If things had gone badly you never know, some jail time could have been served.
Six + hours counting at the same table or same casino is crazy (except a small player in many (not all) of the mega joints when crowded) and moreso with a flasher. Hitting 18 or 19 generally means that the dealer has to call out "hitting hard 18" which alerts the pit. You do not need to try and win every hand, the advantages for you on doubles, splits and staying with stiffs is much larger than any advantage gained by counting.
Years ago on the strip in a hand held game I sat down next to first base and could easily see the dealer flashing the next card to first base. It had to be on purpose, I took advantage for a few hands and probably in 20 minutes I not only left the table but the casino also. I just thought that if I could see this easily, passer bys could see it easily, then someone working for the casino had to see it and if the dealer and player were arrested I had no interest in being tied together with them.
Risking the possible loss of your freedom and all that goes with that for the chance of winning a few chips is not advantage gambling.

Mike G

I would play it some also but very very carefully. Never for 6.5 hours at a stretch (how do you do that anyway?) and I'd never hit 18 or 19. I'd let it dictate my splits and doubles, I might actually stand a little more often, but not much more.

You could be not tipping at all, but if you start winning big and they figure out your front loading and if that casino didn't have a particulary warm spot in their heart for that dealer, they might accuse you both of collusion; and colluders don't cut up the take in front of the cameras by tipping. They cut it up afterhours in the dark.