Fake IDs

On another board, it is suggested that a Nevada Casino can confiscate the winnings of a person playing with a fake ID in Nevada.

It is said:

"Fake id's will get your winnings forfeited in Vegas if:

*you are trying to avoid paying taxes
*you are underage
*you are a blacklisted person (the Black Book)

and there are some other special circumstances. Faked id will get you in trouble if intent to defraud can be established."

Is this true? If you have been blacklisted (assume Griffin) and play under a fake ID can your winnings be confiscated?

If a ploppy used a fake ID to try to avoid the W-2G but got caught and furnished the correct one would, the casino still confiscate his winnings?

Thanks,
PlayerPerson

You asked:

If a ploppy used a fake ID to try to avoid the W-2G but got caught and furnished the correct one would, the casino still confiscate his winnings?

What you are describing is a felony against the United States, pure and simple. You will be lucky if the only result is confiscation of your money and chips. And here, it is not the casino that would take them, but Law Enforcement.

Using a fake-Id to avoid compliance with Tax and CTR laws is much more serious than using it to play BJ. There was a case where a casino and the gaming commission tried to confiscate the winnings of an MIT player on the grounds that he used a fake ID, and the Nevada Supreme Court rules for the player. See Chen v. Monte Carlo

The Black book is Nevada Gaming's list of Excluded persons, availiable on the internet. In the case of underage patrons and blacklisted people the casino does not have to pay them their winnings or compensate them for their losses.

If you refuse to give ID on a jackpot, the casino pays you, but withholds backup withholding of 28%. If you refuse to provide ID and SSN when CTRing, over 10K cash trasnasctions in a day, the casino can bar you from futher play until you provide ID and SSN. The casino cannot legally confiscate winnings from anyone unless specifically allowed by law and in the case of a W2-G they just do backup withholding.

There is nothing that requies you to tell the casino who you are and nothing that says you cannot give a phony name or play under an alias. A casino is not a government entity. Fake ID can get you into trouble as many states have laws against them in this post-911 environment, but one of the consequences is not withholding of winnings. Chen vs Monte Carlo has already said that the casinos do not have detrimental reliance on ID's since anyone can play anonymously and quite often people play under assumed names with the consent of the casino.

BP: You posted: "There is nothing that requies you to tell the casino who you are....."

That is incorrect. Nevada Gaming Regulation 6a, titled Cash Transactions Prohibitions, Reporting and Recordkeeping, governs cage transactions. Cashiers can ask for ID for certain transactions and a valid ID must be provided. Without valid ID, the cash is transferred to a Project 21 account and the individual is given detailed information on how to provide proper ID either by mail or in person and the time limit.

Without proper ID, you can�t be in a gaming area and casino security will walk you off the premises. If you provided a fake ID, it will be confiscated and the individual may be trespassed or detained for Metro (police).

Three examples that I witness or was involved:

(1) A male, over 30, refused to show ID and provide his name when cashing in $300 (est.) of chips. The Pit Boss was summoned and had to vouch for his identity under the �known patron� exclusion.

(2) Individual clearly over 21, but under 30, had a NJ DL that did not match the example in the Cage�s DL book. He had no other form of ID. His money, est. $45, was withheld and he was provided project 21 info about mailing certified copies of valid IDs.

(3) Elderly man hit a jackpot on a dollar slot. The only form of ID he had was an expired, by several years, CA DL. His winnings were withheld in the Project 21 account. He returned later with a current passport and was paid, minus taxes.

below

I worked in the slot department and worked closely with the cage department. If there is some reason that you are required or simply that the casino request ID then you are required to show it to recieve any money. There could be a number of reasons. The casino may think you are under 21. Your cash transactions have exceeded or the casino personnel thinks they have exceeded $3000 (not $10,000 thats a different form). Expired IDs are not valid. The list goes on. It for both the patron's, casino's, and state's protection. When it comes to money, no one takes any chances.

That is incorrect. Nevada Gaming Regulation 6a, titled Cash Transactions Prohibitions, Reporting and Recordkeeping, governs cage transactions. Cashiers can ask for ID for certain transactions and a valid ID must be provided. I mentioned CTR's in my original post. Cashing out for <$2,500 at a time means you never have an issue in this regard. You can often get away with cashing out $2,000 a whack multiple times per shift or by going to various different cages. (not structuring if grand total is less than $10,000.01).

Without valid ID, the cash is transferred to a Project 21 account and the individual is given detailed information on how to provide proper ID either by mail or in person and the time limit.
Project 21 accounts are for funds withheld when the casino thinks a minor is attempting to gamble. Minors can simply get someone else to cash their chips for them at a later time and there is no scrutiny for amounts < $2,500 at a time. Fortunately for them, most have fake ID's that are so good that most cops can't tell they're fake (quite often they're real drivers licenses anyway).

Without proper ID, you can�t be in a gaming area and casino security will walk you off the premises. If you provided a fake ID, it will be confiscated and the individual may be trespassed or detained for Metro (police).
This is a complete myth...you do NOT have to have an ID to be in a gaming area anymore than you need an ID to be inside Walmart. The casino has the same right to ask you to leave whether you have an ID on you or not. Obviously if you're young looking you may need ID to prove that you are of age to gamble, but there are plenty of children and babies in strollers passing through casino gaming areas all the time on the way to hotel rooms or to restaurants who don't have any form of legal ID yet.

Three examples that I witness or was involved:

(1) A male, over 30, refused to show ID and provide his name when cashing in $300 (est.) of chips. The Pit Boss was summoned and had to vouch for his identity under the �known patron� exclusion. Perhaps you work at the Gold Spike...you mean they didn't try to CTR him for his massive $300 cashout?

(2) Individual clearly over 21, but under 30, had a NJ DL that did not match the example in the Cage�s DL book. He had no other form of ID. His money, est. $45, was withheld and he was provided project 21 info about mailing certified copies of valid IDs. Sounds like the patron still young enough for the casino to think they were being set up by gaming for a fine.

(3) Elderly man hit a jackpot on a dollar slot. The only form of ID he had was an expired, by several years, CA DL. His winnings were withheld in the Project 21 account. He returned later with a current passport and was paid, minus taxes. Again, if you don't want 28% backup tax withheld from your jackpot you have to have a current ID and provide your SSN. Expired ID's are not valid.

BP: You posted ORIGINALLY: "There is nothing that requies you to tell the casino who you are....."

I provided the info on rule 6A directly from the NGC�s web page. If you still dissent, go read the regulation!

You obviously cannot admit that someone who works in a casino and was trained on the rules and regulations, such as Richard and myself, may know more about this subject than you.

As for the rest of your, mostly, nonsensical post, e.g. �myth� of IDs being required and children and babies in strollers passing through the gaming area, it isn�t worth rebutting an �argument� THAT ridiculous.

Gibbs: That was an interesting read. Nice to have substance added to a post before it deteriorates into a juvenile �precipitation contest�.

I particularly enjoyed the sentence in the dissenting opinion that "neither card counting nor the use of a legal subterfuge such as a disguise to gain access to this table game is illegal under Nevada law."

BP has make a clear and succinct post accurately describing the situation. And once again you react hysterically.

This is starting to become a pattern.

Richard wrote:
If there is some reason that you are required or simply that the casino request ID then you are required to show it to recieve any money.

I don't agree that simply because a casino employee asks for
ID you are required by law to provide ID. What is just
casino policy is not necessarily what's required by law even
though the casino employee wants to believe so.

As bigplayer explained so well there should be no legal basis for
casinos to require ID to cash smaller amount say less than $2,500 unless
you look young. At least that is the case in Nevada.
Many times the cage does not even know what's required by
law and will ask you for ID just to be on the safe side.

MathProf: You seem to be as biased towards BP as you are against me. While I respect your mathematically knowledge, I disagree strongly, not hysterically, with both your description of my post and BP's rebuttal.

In this forum, I have no problem admitting when I�m wrong. However on this issue I have both knowledge and experience and politely disproved BP�s statement that: �There is nothing that requies (sic) you to tell the casino who you are��

You might want to consult your dictionary or someone in the English Dept, because you were off base in both your description of my post and BP�s.

Here are some definitions to help you out:

Succinct: Characterized by clear, precise expression in few words.

Accurately: Conforming exactly to fact; errorless or deviating only slightly or within acceptable limits from a standard..

Hysterical: Of, characterized by, or arising from hysteria.

Hysteria: Behavior exhibiting excessive or uncontrollable emotion, such as fear or panic.

You can still choose to be barred from further play rather than give up your identity...you just pick up your chips and leave...you get others to cash chips for you at a later time without reg 6A comming into effect at all. You can choose to stop buying in at $9900 rather than have regulation 6a come into effect. Whether you choose create a transaction that forces you to provide ID to continue playing is up to you.

how you got your $100 bills when you buy-in for thousands of dollars at the table, but suddenly the casino needs to "verify" your play when you cashout three yellow $1000 chips at the cage. It's all a game with the casinos trying to find out who their players are when the players would rather not be hassled about it or remain anonymous.

The proximate cause of him winning $40,400 at Monte Carlo had nothing to do with his fake ID, but simply the fact that Monte Carlo had bad table game security and failed to take precautions to preent Chen from playing in the first place. Chen could have gotten his playing stakes thorugh any manner of methods including buying in for 9K per day, getting teammates to buyin for chips at craps and handing them off at to Chen, or simply keeping an inventory of Monte Carlo chips. The fake Burma passport had nothing to do with Monte Carlo losing money.

You might want to consult your dictionary or someone in the English Dept, because you were off base in both your description of my post and BP�s.

Here are some definitions to help you out: �

We can all nitpick spelling and grammar. In the quote above, there should be a period between the "t" in Dept and the comma. "BP" should not be capitalized since bigplayer does not capitalize his handle. So what? What difference does it make? This is a message board, not grammar or spelling class. Probably there are a couple of errors in this post, too. Big deal. Earlier I posted in support of casino employees, specifically No Cookies, posting here, stating that we can all learn from each other. No Cookies may be proving me wrong.

Mathprof and bigplayer are two of the most respected and knowledgeable posters here. Both have played for a long time at high stakes. Both have fought battles with casino personnel who have abused them. Though I play at lower stakes than Mathprof and bigplayer, I have had many hassles with casino employees, too.

Being rude to two people who give freely of their knowledge and wisdom to try to help other, less experienced players will not serve No Cookies well. No Cookies is, in my opinion, beginning to sound like the minimum wage security guard who thinks he �knows the law" because some casino higher-up told it to him in a two-hour �training course.� Ask the guards at Imperial Palace what they now think of the "training" they were given by the casino.

A casino employee cannot force a patron to show identification, any more than the clerk at McDonald's can force a hamburger buyer to show ID. The casino can throw the patron out for not showing ID, or for any reason, or for no reason. A casino is a private business. A patron is a private individual. The remedy to a standoff regarding ID is for one or both to choose not to do business with one another.

Spreading misinformation like Without proper ID, you can�t be in a gaming area does a disservice to everyone. It perpetuates the myth the casinos like to spread that somehow they have special rights to intrude on the privacy of their patrons that other private businesses don�t have. Of course, if casino employees continue to behave as if they are somehow above the law, the lawsuits, settlements, and jury awards against casinos and their misbehaving employees will continue.

I respectfully suggest that an apology is in order from No Cookies to bigplayer and Mathprof. No one likes or respects a bully. No Cookies, please don�t become a bully. The casinos are too full of bullies already; bullies are not needed here. Thoughtful and respectful dialogue will be welcomed by most posters here, regardless of which side of the fence a poster is on. Rudeness and personal attacks will not be welcomed, and serve no constructive purpose.

Karl D....you missed the important phrase in that statement. "TO RECIEVE MONEY". If the casino wants to see an ID to make a transaction then you have to. Just like a bank sometimes requests an ID to perform a transaction. Hell, even Bank One (soon to be Chase) requires a fingerprint on payroll checks if you don't have an account with them. Whats next, a DNA sample?

Bigplayer....Casinos DO require an ID if you have hit $10,000 in a single cash transactions or multiple small buys. This is required by federal law to avert money laundering. Again, even banks require the same procedure. Your information goes on a CTR (Cash Transaction Report) as well as your photo(it is taken without you knowing). In the slot department you have to actually look at a particular camera so that the casino can take your photo. If you cash in or cash out for $3,000 or more, you are supposed to provide ID and your name goes on a MTL (Multiple Transaction Log). Usually casinos will get your information from your players card, as most players with this much money will provide it from the start. If you don't provide one, the MTL is really not very important so the pit usually just writes down "Misc." or "Anon." on the log. At the cage its a different story. They don't have a game to slow down. They have all the time in the world so they take the time to get an ID.

Are you referring to the fact that you need an ID so as not to be suspected of being of age on the gaming floor? Im not in Nevada and every patron who looks 30 or under is carding before entering our casino.

Maybe you are unaware of this, but typing in all Caps is considered shouting.

Your subject line �but you are WRONG� is shouting. If someone shouts out �but you are WRONG�, it sounds hysterical to me. My recollection of your earlier thread is that you also got hysterical there.

In the earlier thread, it became clear that you were �out of the loop� regarding SF21. But your reaction to this was to be angry at BP. Since �No Cookies� didn�t know something, then it could not possibly be �well-known�. I think �No Cookies� knows a lot less than he/she thinks he/she does.

You have been repeating a lot of casino propaganda. We have all heard it before. We know that it is bogus. We don�t have much patience for casino people to come here and spread their propaganda

There are other posters where are trying to nit-pick BP�s posts. I think they should re-read them. I think he already addressed all those nits

Richard: In my examples, which I was personally involved and/or witnessed, I included both an individual over 30, w/o ID, and an individual under 30, with a suspect ID, cashing in chips under any required reporting dollar amount.

I avoided opinion or arbitrary example and used the actual NGC regulation to disprove bigplayer's statement.

I appreciate and respect the knowledge you brought to the discussion.