Did this incident reveal me as a counter? Or as a superstitious player?

I did something last night that I slightly regret. First of all, let me say that I am a mediocre counter at best. I was playing last night and losing. I am at a table with two other players. The count goes very low, so I sit out. The other two players play a couple of hands, then leave the table, leaving me alone. At the point the count was extremely low, with at least two decks left to play. I was low on money, and I knew that if I continue playing, I would lose what I have left and not get to play another shoe. I ask the dealer if I could give up on the shoe and let her reshuffle. She says she needs to ask the pit boss. So the pit boss is called over, and I ask her the same question. She says they allow that upstairs (high limit) but not here. So I think maybe I'll get lucky and I continue to play. I lose three hands in a row. Count is still very low. I few more hands, and money will be completely gone. So I say I can't play this shoe anymore I need to find a different table. The dealer says she doesn't blame me. I get up, look over at the table next to me. The pit boss notices me getting up. I say to her that I can't take this shoe any more. Is there really no chance of shuffling. The pit boss hesitates for two seconds, then says go ahead. The dealer shuffles. After the pit boss leaves, the dealer quietly tells me that it was a judgment call, and the pit boss can allow it whenever she wants.

So, I'm wondering if I what I did was wrong. Did I look like a counter, or did the pit boss think I was just being superstitious? I have never done anything like that before. I probably never will again. Was I wrong to do that? Should I have moved to another table? I kind of liked that table and the dealer at the table.

By the way, by dumb luck, I got all my money back.

Thanks,

Ray

They simply don't cater to the lower limit players. The floorpeople can't just allow anyone to reshuffle the cards, till they seem to turn favorable to the player. If the general policy says don't reshuffle then it is just not in the floor's best interest to do so.

Since you were obviously underbankrolled, you were no threat to the house.

Verbally making such a big deal about that particularly shuffled shoe would make you look like you didn't like the "flow" of that particular last shuffle. It probably made you look like a ploppy, although I wouldn't take asking for a shuffle as a normal practice because it does get you noticed by the pit.

From your original post it is unclear as to whtehr you were under bankrolled. But that is besides the point, if you got up and walked away they would have shuffled the cards anyway, so the PB done you no real favours.

Incidentally, you obviously knew enough about counting to sit out a negative count, so why play on when the other 2 left ?

BTW congrats on the luck in getting your money back :)

I am not going to make a habit out of asking for a shuffle. In fact, I will probably never do it again. If I looked like a ploppy that didn't like the "flow of the cards", that's fine with me. It's true that I was underbankrolled, but they didn't know that. Although she could see only a small stack of reds in front of me.

I shouldn't have played when the other two left. I probably should have just moved to another table. I just didn't feel like moving tables, but I thought I'd see if I got lucky for a couple of hands. I didn't. I had a halfway decent bankroll walking into the casino, but ran into very bad luck losing many hands when the count was high, and was underbankrolled by the time this incident happened. It was incredible luck that I got my money back.

It depends on whatever that particular pit boss may think. But don't take the chance! In in that spot NEVER ask for a shuffle. Get up and leave. Also, do not sit out hands at the table. Get up and leave. DO NOT take chances and gamble on what the pit may determine what your actions mean. Also pay little attention to those here who will make excuses for you why what you did is OK. IT IS NOT. When this happens be as inconspicuous as you can and leave the table.

It's too late. I already did it. I was just wondering what people thought the casino would think of it. I've decided not to worry about it until there is something to worry about.

I'm never going to do that again though.

Thanks for the advice.

in general, you won't get noticed until you cause yourself to be noticed. Once you attract someone's attention, it is just a matter of time before someone does a "skills check" which is the beginning of the end.

Surviving as a counter is less about making plays that make the EITS folks think you are not a counter, it is more about not attracting any attention whatsoever to yourself so that you don't have to make distracting cover plays that might not be enough to evade problems anyway.

You want to be utterly forgettable while sitting at the table...

I love using the no mid-shoe rule against the House in an instance like this. I know that if I am the only one at the table and others are waiting, and I leave to go to the washroom, the pit will order the deck shuffled to get the table active with the new players.

Then I return to the table just as the shuffle is finished and quickly clear the table again by splitting tens or doubling a blackjack or some other dumb move.

I love shuffling away those negative counts using the House's own anti-counter rule.

Ray:

If you were underbankrolled and facing a negative shoe at a local casino, just go home. The casino will be open tomorrow, with fresh shoes, and you'll have time to replenish your bankroll.

I am a mediocre counter...

Why play if you are mediocre? Why not be the best you can be at anything you do in life?

leaving me alone

Get used to it. This happens all the time. Learn how to put into your act being a "table hopper". It can be done like any table hopping typical ploppy. Think of it this way; you could have immediately sat at any other BJ table and started playing in the middle of any shoe and "on average" you would have had better odds (0 RC/TC) than trying to grind through 2 decks worth of very negative cards. You need to put into your act, table hopping, wonging and back counting. But remember not to be too systematic in the process.

I was low on money

You shouldn't even be at the table if this has even the slightest chance of happening. What if you came across a monster high count and you put out all you had and you got two aces and the D was showing a 4,5,6,or 7? Even worse; what if the count was a monster and you got to face cards and D double exposed a hard 16? Now you need to split your faces and possibly double soft 21's 'til the cows come home, but you can't do it?

I ask the dealer if I could give up on the shoe and let her reshuffle.

You can't do this every time you find yourself in a high neg count. Just get out. Find a way to leave without it looking like you are a novice counter.

Did I look like a counter

Probably not, but it depends on your act and a number of other things. Worst case; you may have given them the perception that you are possibly a novice counter. They probably felt sorry for you because you lost your hands and they just figured you were overwhelmed by your superstitions and loses.

Keep learning, keep growing. It's a wonderful game and financial opportunity.

I just didn't feel like moving tables

Don't be so lazy and don't fall in love with the D. Table hopping, wonging and back-counting are what you must do to significantly and consistantly beat shoe games.

You and others have argued against under-playing if your session stake is low. Indeed, low session stake is very common for high stakes players.

Let us take one simple case. You are at a table and there is a good positive true count. Either you are back-counting the table, or you have played the shoe from the beginning and lost. Now in this situation, you still have positive EV and should continue to bet. If you don�t have enough for a full bet, then you have positive EV if you put up half of your session stake, leaving the other half to cover ad double down or split.

Starting a shoe from the beginning is another matter. You can do that, but the session stake requirements go up. You also need to be prepared to wong out much more aggressively. Of course, running low on money is a good �excuse� to wong out.

There isn�t any point in playing a negative shoe when you are low on money. So I would agree with your recommendations in this particular case.

Now in the original post, Ray wrote: Should I have moved to another table? I kind of liked that table and the dealer at the table.
We have to ask why you �kind of liked the dealer and the table.�

There are a lot of good reasons to like a dealer. Perhaps he dealt deeper. This is certainly a good reason to try to stay at the table. There are other reasons. Perhaps the guy wasn�t an obnoxious jerk, created a positive atmosphere, and wasn�t hustling you for tokes. This is a reason to chose this dealer, but it is much lower on the list than other considerations.

Now to get back to your question: No You did NOT do the wrong thing by getting a shuffle up. Playing at the table before the shuffle-up may have been a mistake. But getting them sto shuffle was not. It does not mean that you are a counter As the boss noted, lots of high-roller ask for a �Courtesy shuffle�. A lot of casinos have rules that you can get one courtesy shuffle a day. If this is offered, take it on negative counts.

Finally, a very important point: Don�t worry about cover right now. Worrry about winning. It doesn�t make sense to lose in order to prevent being barred.

There must be 10 casinos in the Chicago. I don�t think any of them are particularly distinguished by great conditions. If you lose half of them, your not going to be much worse off. And at your level of play, I don�t think you are in danger of losing any.

After you have made money at this game, and after you have lost some casinos, then you can start worrying abut longevity.

Unless we are playing really high stakes, I don't think their is any reason to worry about getting barred at the (mostly awful) chicago area riverboat casinos. I'm sure I've been made as a counter over the years and no one seems to care. But they are so terribly crowed I go as infrequently as possible, and have been playing only poker here until I can get to lv again.

Math Prof, you need to get out of the Yukon occasionally. Your current post now adds to your long list of past curiosities (Yukon's Greatest hits, not available in stores). It was bad enough when you told newcomers that in today's Las Vegas game one could easily make $150,000 before having any problems. This is delusional and misleading out of towners. Today's Las Vegas game has much tougher conditions.

Now, we have the latest postings to the Yukon Advisory:

"No You did NOT do the wrong thing by getting a shuffle up. Playing at the table before the shuffle-up may have been a mistake. But getting them sto shuffle was not. It does not mean that you are a counter."

This is ridiculous. Outside the Yukon this creates notice. Do not ask for a reshuffle ever. The pit is not going to seek your latest postings from Yukon State to explain to them why they should not think of your reshuffle request as suspicious.

"Don�t worry about cover right now. Worrry about winning. It doesn�t make sense to lose in order to prevent being barred."

Unbelievable. I case you are unware, one can win AND avoid being barred. Get up from the table in bad shoes.

"There must be 10 casinos in the Chicago. I don�t think any of them are particularly distinguished by great conditions. If you lose half of them, your not going to be much worse off."

That you "don't think" is quite obvious. With all the types of records of winners and all the communications, players cards, computers, photos, casinos buying others casinos and using common information, and other information dissenmination across the country (this means outside of Chicago), why risk future problems? Do not get your name noticed by anyone as a winner no matter what your current level of play. I have seen red chippers get barred as well. You don't want what you did as a red chipper be on the record when you eventually become a black chipper.

Perhaps they will eventually open the "Yukon Station Casino" and you can get a little experience in this game.

I anxiously await the response from your merry band of followers.

Thanks for the comments and advice. I pretty much play blackjack for fun, and don't plan to make serious money from it. I will never again ask for a shuffle. I don't think the one time I did it is going to make much of a difference. I don't think I need to avoid this casino, but I won't do it again. Thanks again for the comments.

I think by now everbody knows you have a personal agenda against Mathprof. My feeling is that everything you write against the "Yukon bloke" will eventually backfire. Mathprof's reputation is far too good to be destroyed so easily. You should be worried about yours.

Francis Salmon

Seems like a good idea to get a shuffle in negative counts. But won't some casinos wait for you to get back from the restroom?

-MJ

Sammy,

The only reason I bother to post here is to help inform the many around the country who read this site and know little about what is really going on. They'll know even less if they listen to YJ and his occasional pie in the sky nonsense. I live in LV, play here regularly and know of what I speak. People don't need bad information and waste their time, money, and effort only to come here and find the truth. This game is still profitable, but the circumstances have become tougher, we need to deal with reality and correct the spreaders of nonsense.

I have never been to the Yukon and I couldn't care less about who thinks what about me. I know quite a bit about this game after decades of play and what I say is good advice. What benefit is provided by those you defend who want to paint an unrealistic picture?

IT IS NOTICEABLE that did not dispute the substance of what I said, as usual. It is your hero worship that has backfired.

You need a new hero.