Did I get screwed?

Playing 6d

Everyone receives first card... Dealer yip yappin' away with dealer to his right... Deals himself yellow cut card (unknowingly) and then deals me (first base) my second card face up (a six of course!)... Then he stops his deal...

Pit boss comes over... Tells him to deal it out... I think he then gave himself the next card and then continued with other players second card and then finishing with his second (down) card...

Pit boss then gave everyone option of pulling bets back... I had 13 vs dealer 4 so I stayed and lost... :(

Pit boss said that was protocol...

Anyone agree/disagree?

Seems like the dealer should simply take the six as his up card and then continue dealing... I think (I was too upset at the time to memorize everything that happened) I would have ended up with 7/3 vs dealer 6 with my x6 unit bet out there... :(

I also didn't know if it was in my favor to stay or back out at that point (odds wise)... 13 vs dealer 4 +7 TC

...Giving players the option you were given is pretty much universal, at least here in Las Vegas.

Sometimes if the pit person is in an especially good mood and there is not too much at stake he'll let the players finish their hands, letting the winners keep their win and treating the losing hands as a push. hey figure they'll own that pushed bet at the end of the day anyway.

BTW, you shouldn't get too upset over misdeals. They happen frequently.

Cobbson

By yourself. Hope it was enjoyable.

Is a losing hand at basic strategy. 13 vs 4 at true +7 is a winning hand by standing. You made the correct decision. Sorry you lost. Dealers make mistakes all the time but bosses generally will not allow back up of cards. Some will call it a dead hand others will alow the play to continue and then give players a free hand. Take 5 bosses under that situation and you will get 5 different decisions.

Thetahoescout,

I got these EV's for 13 vs. 4 for a 6D H17 game using HiLo tags and B.S.

 

	13 vs 4 

TC	EV 

-10	-32.89 

-9	-30.99 

-8	-30.17 

-7	-29.45 

-6	-28.08 

-5	-26.71 

-4	-25.56 

-3	-24.45 

-2	-23.19 

-1	-21.77 

0	-20.05 

1	-18.13 

2	-16.44 

3	-15.05 

4	-13.06 

5	-11.44 

6	-10.01 

7	-8.36 

8	-6.58 

9	-5.10 

10	-3.77 

When the TC is +10. Playing BJ As A Business p.138. This shows the player's edge at 3% 13 vs 4. I know that this is referring to SD so I assumed that at TC +7 it would be also positive by staying. I overlooked the 6DK possibility in a hasty decision. Thanks for the help.

My rule of thumb is to always pull back my bet if I have a stiff hand since dealer almost never has a greater than 50% chance of busting in 6 or 8 deck games.

Thanks everyone for the info...

Reason I stayed in was I really thought the pit boss was not going to pull any "losses"... But like previously mentioned, 5 different pit bosses, probably going to get 5 different resolutions...

Based on my history, I would estimate that there is roughly a one in three chance that the PB will subsequently push all losses after allowing the option to get out of the bet. If you were assuming a similar probability of this outcome, then I think you made the right call.

From your Sim to F-18. Your Sim is -3.77%. F18 is +3%. SD to 6D shouldn't be that far off.

it shouldn't make that much of a difference. Tenths or hundredths I would think.

When inside a casino, assume nothing.

Thetahoescout,

I found my copy of Playing Blackjack as a Business and found that Revere was discussing a SD, S17, DA2, NoDAS game, using (presumably) the Revere Point Count... he didn't actually say whether it was RPC or Revere Advanced Point Count. I assume that his Table F-18 (page 138) is supposed to apply to initial 2-card hands dealt from an initial TC of +10.

I ran a 10-billion-round CVData sim for a heads-up RPC player flat betting. The data below are the IBA's for each two-card total vs. each dealer's upcard for rounds that began with a TC of +10. Of the 10-billion rounds, 56,564,113 started with a TC of +10, and 210,089 of them were 13 vs. 4.

As you can see, 13 vs. 4 is indeed +EV here, with an IBA of 5.59%.

I believe the main reason that here 13 vs. 4 is +EV, while for the 6D H17 game I reported earlier it is -EV, is because the Effect of Removal is so much higher for SD than for 6D. After all, if the dealer has an X in the hole, then our 13 contains one or two cards that would give the dealer a standing hand.

 

	2	3	4	5	6	7	8	9	10	Ace	Totals 

5	-3.26	6.53	17.80	24.91	15.71	-28.89	-34.41	-43.56	-51.07	-53.07	-32.31 

6	-2.65	8.40	16.18	24.25	16.02	-29.63	-38.08	-44.21	-52.27	-55.46	-33.58 

7	2.31	13.90	24.40	30.78	27.46	-5.65	-31.85	-41.34	-49.37	-49.43	-27.93 

8	13.94	24.03	60.38	71.61	68.88	22.52	-3.61	-30.73	-40.57	-39.69	-11.58 

9	48.57	65.85	83.09	94.82	92.52	63.10	23.06	-3.55	-27.26	-27.91	9.50 

10	81.71	94.51	104.51	116.19	111.63	85.06	68.30	44.04	3.36	-1.27	41.26 

11	91.89	102.16	112.15	120.87	114.37	77.02	60.60	44.32	19.70	7.30	49.92 

12	-15.54	-6.82	3.08	9.32	-0.34	-33.50	-40.20	-47.30	-52.41	-56.35	-36.29 

13	-14.91	-3.53	5.59	10.09	0.69	-42.69	-48.36	-51.60	-58.39	-59.90	-40.59 

14	-14.88	-4.15	5.13	10.23	0.11	-50.53	-52.62	-57.93	-63.66	-64.18	-44.55 

15	-13.79	-3.59	4.95	9.65	-0.56	-52.44	-57.54	-63.03	-62.33	-66.83	-45.01 

16	-14.30	-5.04	4.34	8.90	-2.14	-49.35	-55.90	-59.75	-62.40	-67.06	-44.53 

17	-4.04	4.48	12.99	15.63	15.32	-7.64	-45.61	-48.39	-51.96	-53.79	-30.91 

18	18.43	24.39	29.47	34.99	41.63	50.08	8.49	-29.08	-31.57	-33.93	-4.80 

19	40.27	42.47	48.34	54.53	58.93	69.97	63.32	21.56	-10.74	-10.87	21.03 

A2	6.82	22.65	35.74	51.59	45.92	-2.75	-10.67	-16.25	-28.76	-40.15	-7.95 

A3	3.46	17.24	37.07	45.75	41.49	-12.66	-16.71	-26.01	-36.10	-44.19	-14.93 

A4	0.66	17.03	36.02	44.73	37.41	-17.33	-23.86	-32.74	-39.88	-48.20	-19.02 

A5	1.03	17.93	34.35	44.41	40.64	-18.05	-27.57	-33.54	-41.92	-50.82	-20.41 

A6	13.41	30.19	48.72	58.39	52.41	2.21	-19.44	-28.90	-37.53	-45.73	-12.19 

A7	32.36	47.26	62.85	69.65	69.11	53.17	11.23	-18.40	-28.68	-33.16	4.40 

A8	42.48	67.48	73.65	83.58	83.95	70.39	66.60	24.28	-12.03	-11.31	26.38 

A9	65.67	65.00	87.77	97.45	97.26	82.23	83.15	79.07	38.90	11.71	59.15 

AT	150.00	150.00	150.00	150.00	150.00	150.00	150.00	150.00	138.74	99.97	142.04 

AA	85.77	96.18	101.69	110.35	112.10	80.38	63.76	46.32	27.80	3.85	57.79 

22	-2.60	22.78	44.39	58.39	48.69	-16.71	-28.93	-36.57	-47.36	-50.13	-22.14 

33	-3.78	26.92	50.23	63.51	43.08	-38.73	-39.05	-45.40	-53.46	-54.43	-29.69 

44	14.82	25.11	65.60	76.48	72.05	26.01	-3.93	-29.10	-39.81	-39.00	-11.05 

55	82.94	98.54	112.88	128.92	126.75	91.17	70.25	45.02	4.19	1.85	42.19 

66	2.92	28.57	48.31	53.21	35.49	-41.48	-46.62	-52.70	-56.99	-55.58	-33.59 

77	14.26	37.23	54.23	52.18	40.89	-10.64	-57.81	-65.06	-60.85	-64.48	-31.50 

88	36.65	52.49	58.35	67.32	66.51	48.91	-5.68	-55.56	-60.19	-43.16	-14.11 

99	57.53	59.85	73.29	85.68	82.42	59.42	40.06	-6.75	-30.62	-24.12	13.11 

TT	62.12	64.09	87.52	101.74	98.18	81.23	82.20	76.17	38.90	10.37	59.30 

Tot	30.18	38.67	50.36	57.62	53.48	26.45	13.63	1.01	-15.94	-27.39	7.11 

Even for 4D S17, standing on 13 vs. 4 is +EV (+1.16%) at TC=+10 when Revere Point Count is used.

Upon further reflection, I believe that this is due to the fact that RPC counts the 7's as +1, while HiLo does not count them.

Since a 7 is an important card for the dealer's hand, knowing that the remaining deck contains fewer 7's than normal means that the standing EV is higher for RPC than for HiLo.

Oh, well... live and learn ;-)

Dog Hand

Thank you for the sim. Your work is very much appreciated and respected. This sim has a lot of info for myself and those who are willing to use it. F-18 shows +3% using RPC 13 vs 4 at true +10. He mentions later that APC was not perfected then. I respect your Sim of +5.59% but why do you think the difference of over 2%? Next question is about the results of your recent sim of hard 5 & 6 vs 3 thru 6 and hard 7 vs 2 thru 6 and hard 8 vs 2 thru 7. Do you think that the positive results were from 2 card hitting or from doubling? Maybe this discussion should be moved over to the theory page. (?)

Thetahoescout,

F-18 shows +3% using RPC 13 vs 4 at true +10. I respect your Sim of +5.59% but why do you think the difference of over 2%?

As I mentioned, Revere says that Braun ran nine billion hands to develop all the numbers for Revere's work. I'm amazed that he was able to extract reasonable results from so few rounds... after all, he didn't run nine billion hands to create Table F-18: he ran nine billion hands for EVERYTHING! As I mentioned above, I ran ten billion rounds just to create my post. Thus, I would suggest that Revere's numbers have very large (but unmentioned) standard errors.

Next question is about the results of your recent sim of hard 5 & 6 vs 3 thru 6 and hard 7 vs 2 thru 6 and hard 8 vs 2 thru 7. Do you think that the positive results were from 2 card hitting or from doubling?

Revere's book provided hard doubling index numbers less than +10 for hard 8 vs. 4 (+6), 5 (+3), and 6 (+3), but none at all for the other hands you mention. If you look, you'll see that these three hands all have IBA's above +60%, while the other hands you mention have IBA's well below this value. Thus, the IBA's are for doubling for 8 vs. 4, 5, and 6, and for hitting all the other hand you mention.

Hope this helps!

Dog Hand