dd vs. 6 d

I am fairly new to counting and am getting ready to go try my skills at my local casino. I have read several books and know that fewer decks are better. At the casino that I go to, I believe 1 or 2 dd games with a $10 minimum are offered during off peak hours. There are plenty of 6 d games with $5 min and about 3 that are $3 min(always packed). I had been planning on playing dd, but may feel more comfortable at first playing the 6 d, since more people play them and more tables to choose from. What would be the best starting point?
Also, the rules are identical.
Any suggestions would be helpful.
Thanks

Unless the penetration is very deep (70% or better) you will win more at six deck.

1. Six deck is faster
2. You can spread bigger
3. You can sit out negative shoes
4. You need less cover
5. Tables are less crowded
6. Not subject to preferential shuffling (biggie)
7. Harder to be stung by cheating dealers.

Avoid the 2D game..especially in casinos where there are only a few of them and mostly six deckers all over the place. The eye watches the double deck games. More green chippers get put in Griffin for the first time because they're bound and determined to play the mediocre games that pass for double deck these days.

the rules are often better at six deck than two deck.

You state that you are "fairly new to counting" and that the "rules are identical."

That being the case you need to get practice in the easier environment of fewer decks first. Since you will be playing small you will not have to worry too much about heat. Beware of preferential shuffling and seek games using a card card for shuffling point.

Use a simulator on the game you choose (I recommend Casino Verite) to see exactly what you're advantage is and how to adjust for each particular game properly. Don't play any higher until you are confident of proficient play. The main thing this early stage is to gradually increase your skills. Starting off with 6 decks adds complexities you shouldn't need to contend with at the start.

A new player should buy the best training software available to acquire the necessary skills. That would be CVBJ by Qfit software. If you don't do it, then you are not a serious player and should avoid the game altogether. And I agree with bp about 6-deckers. In the past, I flocked to the double deck games only to find lousy penetration, bad rules, and unwanted scrutiny. To say nothing about the slowness of the game in general. Never got that in the shoe games.
The approach I use for playing shoes is to back count, wait until I get the optimal shoe penetration with at least a +5 and play two hands until the cut card arrives. Doing it this way gives you a really good edge. Will you at least try it?

Sorry if I should already know this, but what counting strategy are you using?

I use Hi-Lo, and usually talk "Hi-Lo". But your comment above convinces me that we are not talking the same system. Why? You said "wong in at +5.". According to CVCX, with a good 6D game, S17, DAS, LS, with 75% penetration, a true count of +5 or higher is going to happen in less than 3% of the total hands played. At 100 hands per hour, you are going to play 3. I'm not sure how that is going to produce a significant win rate unless you bet _huge_ during those very rare play opportunities.

I assume that multi-g is not ready to bet $1000 or something similar, which means that for a beginner that might be willing to bet $25, he is going to play 3 hands per hour, at an average advantage of 3% or a bit better, producing 3 * .03 * $25 per hour, which turns into $2.25 per hour... (I would have to stop and think about how playing 2 hands at once would affect this, my initial thought is that it is not a factor that is easy to consider, due to co-variance and eating additional cards per round).

That leads me to believe that you are probably either not talking Hi-Lo, or else you are talking running count vs true count?

Play-all at a .75% DD game spreading $5 to $40 can produce about $20 per hour with hi-lo, which sounds a _lot_ better to me.

I would hardly choose to argue with bp, as I'm certain he's forgotten more about this game than I know, but I personally prefer the SD/DD games over 6D. You can play 2-3 shoes in an hour and never see a decent + count. In an hour at SD/DD you will see many. yes you can wong easier at 6D, with no attention at low bet levels. But if I sit down at a 6D and spread $5 to $100 (because I have to play-all) or I sit down at a DD and spread $5 to $40, my hourly win rates will be comparable, but my bankroll will not go as crazy (up and down) with the DD game because the better game requires a smaller spread to produce the same hourly win rate.

And yes, you could bet 2x in the DD game due to the better rules and keep the same BR ROR, which would make the DD bankroll ride wilder. But I doubt a beginner would do that...

I also think pitched games are easier to count to start with, as they go slower because the dealer has to turn cards over hand by hand to payoff. Only bad point comes when the dealer hole card is an ace and he flips it over and everyone tosses in their hands willy-nilly, which can create an interesting moment for a new counter trying to spot / count all those cards turned every-which-way.

I use the KO method. As I am reading responses, I am torn which game to play as it is about 50/50. I am leaning toward the 6d. Just because there are more tables to choose and they are offered at all my local casinos with a $5 minimum. Thanks for all the great info..

I was really asking the person that responded to you with the suggestion to "wong in at +5 or better". If I knew what count he was using, I could use the right CVCX sim and give the number of playable hands per hour more accurately than my HiLo numbers that I posted...

Here's the first question I would ask you:

When you play, what is your "betting plan?" Are you going to use a $5 min bet no matter what? If so, play the DD game. You can spread to $40 and beat it at about the same rate as spreading to $100 at the 6D game. And your bankroll will fluctuate way less.

If you want to "kelly bet" then this would change. So that's the first question to answer. Do you have a specific min bet in mind? Or a specific max bet in mind? We can work from either end.

The DD has a $10 minimum during the off peak times, $15 during peak times. The 6D have a $5 min all the time.
When I am not at an advantage I will bet the minimum always.
Not sure of what my spread will be, depends on the game.

Also, the DD has no mid shoe entry.

OK. A few points then.

1. The DD game will have a 2x bigger min bet (note that I play several DD games and find $5 mins all the time, although I never saw anything like that on the Vegas strip last time I was there. Of course, finding $5 min tables on the strip was also not easy. Only ones I saw were at the Tropicana, if you are talking about evenings, everyone else had $10 tables although I think I might have seen a $5 6D table at the Grand during daytime hours, but that is not a certainty). Playing the DD game for the same ROR as the 6D game, you will win twice as much per hour, assuming $10-$80 at the DD game, vs $5 to $100 at the 6D game. I think I gave the ROR numbers in another post, but I believe that if you have a BR of $3000 or so, you will be playing at a 13.5% ROR roughly, for either game. I can give exact numbers when I get back to my laptop if you want them.

2. The 6D game will see you betting lower overall, but winning about 1/2 the $ amount as well. And both will have a significant variance, unless you use WI/WO on the 6D game aggressively. WI/WO works well, particularly if you can find two tables where you can back-count both at the same time, but I find this not very common, except maybe at an Indian casino I can think of, as it seems the pits like to mix and mingle the games for variety or something, or to expose everyone to different games in the hope of capturing them in a higher-house-edge game.. You are probably not going to Wong In to a DD game, although you can certainly Wong Out on occasion. Of course, on the Vegas strip, playing on weekends at night, you probably are not going to wong in on 6D games there either due to the crowd.

Chappy mentioned counting ease. DD is easier as you don't see those -25 and +25 running counts very often. Also the game goes slower. But they are, as bp mentioned, watched a lot closer. As a case in point, I don't ever recall being backed off of a 6D shoe, although I have had more than my fair share of same on SD/DD games. As you "learn the ropes" you begin to figure out what you can and can't get away with, so that the problem is mitigated a bit. If you bet table mins, and spread cautiously, you can play either game without getting tossed. And, IMHO (and only IMHO) I prefer the DD game as being more beatable with a lower top bet, unless you intend to table-hop. On the MS coast, for example, table-hopping might be a bit of a problem if you want to move from one casino to another to avoid being too obvious. You can incur some travel time going from say the Beau to the Copa, which cuts way into your playing time.

Thanks for all the knowledge.

MG: My two chips worth would be, focus on getting comfortable at the table with all the distractions, playing BS as close to perfect as you can, and not playing past your win goal, loss limit, or fatigue factor.

Your reasons for leaning to 6D make sense. While there was some good advice posted, I think what is more important than any absolute opinion, (Gorgon), is that it is your money, you should practice using any method that you chose and play any version of the game offered that you feel is best for your bankroll and skill level.

Good luck; looking forward to reading about your experience.

heat, losing your session roll or having something else to do are the only reasons I can think of that should be cause to quit playing.

SB: Are you implying that you would stay put regardless of the count, how much money you won, a streak of bad luck, or physical or mental fatigue?