DD Indexes?

I have recently started playing alot of DD (was playing 6D). I am curious about whether the DD Hi Lo indexes are significantly different from the 4D inexes in PBJ. It has been awhile since I read PBJ cover to cover, so I may just be missing something, but I recently scanned through it again and did not see anything.

Am I giving up much EV by using the 4D indexes for DD? Maybe the reason why PBJ does not include DD indexes is that the EV is really close to 4D.

Also, how much EV would I give up by using the 4D indexes for SD (using proper SD BS)? Just trying to do a cost/benefit analysis on that one.

By the way, I usually play DD,H17,DA2,NSR (both DAS and No DAS) pen varies between 50 - 75%. SD rules are H17,DA2,No DAS,NSR 65% pen.

About the only changes in indexes for 4D vs 2D H17 DAS are the following:

13 vs 3 -2
11 vs A -1
s17 vs 2 0

The rest are the same, and those 3 plays aren't going to break the bank.

I think it would be worth your time to use SD indexes for the SD game. If you don't have an outrageous spread, playing deviations are so important in SD. It should be worth the time to use specific SD numbers (and to also go beyond the I18 in single deck).

For some reason, I put -2 as the 4D index for 13 v 3 (I originally used the RA I18 from BJA and then added more from PBJ and there are probably differences). I should probably just ditch the RA Indexes and use PBJ as the sole source to avoid any inconsistencies.

The SD decision is whether I:
A - Ignore SD and just stick to DD.
B - Play SD with DD indexes and accept the lowered EV.
C - Learn the SD indexes (in addition to DD) and play both games.

The trade off is that A and B would allow me to focus on increasing my DD indexes and would also allow better camo since I will be able to be more proficient and not have to focus as intently at the table. From your response, I will forget about option B, but I am still a bit torn since I have been running the numbers on SD and it seems like I can greatly increase my EV while keeping the ROR constant. By the way, option D (SD exclusively) is not viable since there is not much SD to choose from where I am at. Any thoughts?

I carry 8 1/2 x 11 sheets of paper with complete charts for most games on them. Memorize both sets of numbers, it is worth it.

If you get you numbers organized, and on easy to read charts, 5 mins. review a day, and pretty soon they are drilled in your head.

I play 40+ indices each for 6D, 2D, 1D, H17, S17, DAS, NDAS.

You are right, the SD EV can be real nice, Good PE (and therefore more than I18) has a lot to do with keeping the swings and ROR down. You will not be able to live off big spreads in SD and expect to play for long.

Sounds like I should just suck it up and put in the time to learn SD indexes. One other reason for learning SD indexes is that I am planning to start making some short trips to Reno/Vegas.

I am very impressed with your inventory of indexes, but am definately looking to get the most bang for my buck since I am not trying to be a pro. 3 BS's (DD DAS/no DAS and SD), and 2 sets of 50 indexes or so is plenty for me, at least for now.

Are the I18 plays the same for SD as multi-deck? DS probably covers this in BJA, but I thought you would know. Other than that, can I find a list of the top indexes in order of importance (beyond I18)? I currently focus on 4D indexes between -2 and +6.

I usually spread either 1-6 or 1-8 in DD and have not received much heat. I was think that I would cut this in half for SD.

I pretty much use everything from -3 to +6. I ignore some of the soft doubles. Griffin's "Theory of Blackjack" has some nice charts showing the importance of plays for single deck. Don S. used these as a starting point to come up with the I18 for multiple decks. I haven't found much use in ranking plays when trying to remember large numbers of indexes.

I memorize numbers as a series, for instance, hard 12 is 3,2,0,-2,-1 (vs 2-6) and 5,3,1,0 is soft 19 vs 3-6. I don't know where these rank, but since I know and use such a large number, I know I have the top 25 or so, already in use. I kind of store these numbers graphically in my mind, in the form of a grid, so by recalling a string of numbers, I know what hand and dealer upcard a particular value pertains to.

I don't think I would play with a pre-set idea of a spread. If a joint tolerates a 1-8 spread at double deck, they might not have a problem with the same spread at single deck. On the other hand, they might not tolerate a 1-2 spread. I think I would 'feel' them out. Spread as much as you can, short of getting backed off. Even if you do settle on a 1-3 spread, I wouldn't hesitate to make a rare 5 or 6 unit parlay bet on a +7,+8 count.

You also might try a 2 unit bet off the top, then backing down to 1 unit on negative count, parlay up to 4 units on positive.

Cover, Act, and Spread could fill a real big book.

SOTSOG, I need one clarification on you indexes if you don't mind. I have noticed that there are several versions of Hi-Lo indexes coming from different sources and some of the indexes that you have used in discussion are different than those listed by Wong in PBJ. For example, you said:

"I memorize numbers as a series, for instance, hard 12 is 3,2,0,-2,-1 (vs 2-6) and 5,3,1,0 is soft 19 vs 3-6. I don't know where these rank, but since I know and use such a large number, I know I have the top 25 or so, already in use. I kind of store these numbers graphically in my mind, in the form of a grid, so by recalling a string of numbers, I know what hand and dealer upcard a particular value pertains to."

I believe that PBJ lists the hard 12 indexes as 3,1,0,-1,-3 for (2-6). I know that some round and some truncate and I believe that I understand how to play each way, but are you sure about the above indexes for hard 12? Just conceptually, shouldn't the index for 12 v. 6 be less than the index for 12 v. 5, meaning that you would be more likely to hit 12 v 5 since the dealer has less of a chance of busting? I am not sure whether this is a typo, but it is confusing when I see different index numbers.

The numbers I were throwing out in the above post were for DD, S17.

In a stand 17 game, the index for 12 vs 6 is a little less negative than 12 vs 5. I think it is due to the increased effect of removal of the 5, which is in the dealer's hand. You hit more often on 12 vs 6, than 12 vs 5. Strange to common sense, but true.

Now in a H17 game, -1 -3 are correct for 12 vs 5, 12 vs 6. This is because the dealer the might have an ACE in the hole under that 6, and instead of having you beat, he has to hit, and could bust. Therefore, you stand more often on 12 vs 6 rather than 12 vs 5, which is more in tune with common sense.

I apologize for the confusion on my part, I should have known that you were right given that your previous posts have always been accurate.

Personally, I have never seen a S17 game (I have only played in the Midwest and Northwest). Well actually, I have been to Vegas and Reno and may have seen a S17 game, but that was before I learned BS and counting, and I did not know what was going on. I guess that I have a natural bias toward what I am used to and naturally assume that people are talking about H17, which is a fault that I should work on. I have it on the very long list of faults to work on :)

Thanks again for your great advice. I really should join GC since I am starting to feel guilty about getting all of this info for free.