counting shuffle machines

Im intrested in counting shuffle machines,where TC is -2...+2
For basic variation(example 12 stand against 2,16 stand against 10,not double 10 against 9,8 double against 6.
They all need +1 or -1 TC
Which is real penetr shuffle machines 1 deck or 2 deck?
How large TC we can get from CSM?

My main goal is not to get edge from BJ,but to cut casino edge minimum.
6 Decks, S17, DA2, DAS, ENHC, Early surrender
How much i cut casino edge by using tiny variation.
0.1% or .2% or not at all?

"how large a TC can you get from a CSM?" The answer is meaningless, as the count means nothing. After cards are played, they get reintroduced into the shuffler and can come out again the following round. How can you possibly count a machine where the penetration is only the total number of cards held out before they are stuck back in the machine. I have seen places that stick cards back into the thing after each round, I have seen places that do it after accumulating one deck or so. That means that at best the penetration is 12% (assuming 8 decks in the thing, holding played cards until one deck is accumulated). No way to play that or get an advantage by counting...

Best way to cut the casino edge to a minimum is walk away. If you can't do that, then all that is left is pure BS play. 100% ROR.

To get a TC of +2, with 7 players at the table, would require a RC of +16, which means that for 8 hands (including the dealer, each player has to get two small cards and a neutral card, or a 10/A and 3 small cards. And that wouldn't help at all since you have already made your bet, and playing decisions with 7.5 of 8 decks left are pretty well meaningless when based on the count that early in the "shoe"...

Don't play. Even better, buy in, notice the CSM, ask "what is that thing?" and when they explain, say "color me up, I'm not playing against that piece of trash" and walk out. Do it every time you go in, so long as it is a different dealer or pit critter. Same plan for when you see 6:5 BJ payoffs on SD games.

I particularly appreciate the comment's in Stainless's last paragraph.

I myself tend to make slightly off color remarks to anyone I see playing against a CSM or 6:5. Theoritically the casinos wouldn't have these if no one played them, but alas ...

in the dealer re-inserting you might be able to increase your edge a tad by spreading when all small cards appear on consecutive rounds...but seldom will you get more than a +1 True count or better. Generally the dealer reinserts the cards midway thru the next round so there is virtually no lag time. Unless the dealer waits a few decks to put the cards back in (doubtful) I doubt it would be worth that much.

In this case, Privador is playing a game with an off the top player edge due to the early surrender. That edge, by itself, on CSM's is not particularly spectacular or useful unless there is something else going on like cash rebates, contest entries, or some other bonuses tied to level of action...or perhaps an older version of a CSM that's prone to malfunction or has a greater latency time.

yes i play it for bonuses.Bonuses give me extra 1,5% advantage.
bonus itself(10 same color BJ will give extra 20 minimum bets)
I play 4-5 boxes with minimum bets.It tooks me 1-2 hour to get these 10 SC BJ(My edge is aproxximately 1%)
I just wanted to know must i stricly follow basic strategy against machine(Never stand 12 vs 2 never stand 16 vs 10 or so on
do not make decisions which are at the edge)

I have noticed that many casinos use bonus system,because CSM are very unpopular even among camblers.And pit bosses cant me call cheater anymore.BJ is ideal game for beating the house,because it gives away only .35%(compering carribean stud poker 5%!! roulette 2.6% slot machines(3-6%)
actually i earn more than counting because there is now variance(or very low,no errors,no heat)

...probably produced the model privador is playing against. The model is a poor design which recycles cards quite slowly. The discards take a while to be reinserted even after reinsertion. You can get a reasonable edge in such a game counting on a last-few-rounds basis.

Has anybody familiar with CSM manual?
Are you 100% sure that,when dealer puts cards CSM ,then cards will be shuffled and IMMIDIATELY go out? You claim that cards that are in the boxes(outside CSM) are real penetr?Hard to trust it.
Mayby there are some cards hysteresis in the CSM,and real penetr is at least 40%

I get +0.18% for these rules. Unless you cannot surrender against the ace. Then, it's -0.27%.
You can play the 16v10 situation according to the cards lying on the table.Always hit 12v2. Index for 10v9 is -1.7 which will be a rare thing for a CSM. Dont double 8v6 as the index for this play is +1.6, still very unlikely.
I guess your additional gain from index plays will be 0.01% at best.
By the way, I would include 12v4 3/3v2 and 4/4v5 in those plays.

Francis Salmon

I don't know which model privador is playing against but at my local casino they have one-2-six and sometimes I sit down there for fun and camouflage, waiting for the hand-shuffled game to open.If I'm in a defiant mood, I try using a continous count of the last three rounds. I just assume the latency is about 50-75 cards but may be this is too optimistic. What do you think?

Francis Salmon

I just assume the latency is about 50-75 cards but may be this is too optimistic.

The exact latency is somewhat time-dependent. But, yes, you are in right ball-park. Note: 60 cards is terrible penetration for a hand-shuffled game, but not bad as a constant point of deep penetration.