Counting

I seem to have been taking some heat for buying a card counting book by John Patrick. I am new to counting, although I read a book by Ken Uston a few years ago.

I bought John Patricks book along with Bryce Carlsons book at a yard sale. I can understand why so many people think it's crap.....Patrick suggests back counting and charting ( looking for dealers who are pulling up bust cards before you sit down to play )...if the count is good and the dealers up cards are 8,9,10.....he suggests not playing. This strikes me as odd since on positive counts the player has the advantage. Why count at all ?

I would have figured this out by myself, especially after reading the first couple of chapters. The chapter called Trends did it for me !

You posess common-sense. A lot of people who buy Patrick crap do not.

Gunther,

You are wise to study and think critically about things which do not appear to make sense. In this case, you are looking critically at something, and you can see that it doesn't hold up to some simple reasoning.

It's not so much as you taking heat, as it is us being very, very concerned that a newcomer may be led astray.

Read through Mr. Carlson's book. There are lots of others once your appetite has been suitably whetted.

What sort of blackjack is available where you play? Do you intend to play it, and if so, at what limits?

M.

Gunther,
If, in my earlier posts to you, you mistook my disdain for John Patrick as irritation at you, I'm sorry to hear it. That was not the case.
@^/
Years ago, a friend who was wanting to learn to count once showed my one of Patrick's book. In just reading a couple of pages, I saw where patrick:

A)Recommended splitting 10's against a dealer's 5 and 6, regardless of the count! I saw it with my own 2 eyes! This was Patrick's basic strategy advice to new players! No kidding.

B) Told newbies that when they were unsure of a play decision, to ask their dealer, because he would tell them the right thing to do. (Anybody who has played serious BJ for very long has at least a couple of horror stories of dealer's giving totally bad advice to players.)

My friend had naturally accepted that there were the correct thing to do, since Patrick was supposed to be an expert and had written a book.
Therein lies the rub.
So many "newbies", (such as yourself)wanting to take the time to learn how to play a winning game, go to their local bookstore and, seeing all the John Patrick books, assume he is on the level. They buy his books and get suckered. If they (and their bankroll) last long enough, they may buy and read legitimate books and turn things around, butI suspect that most never make it that far, tapping out and giving up on BJ altogether.

Once upon a time Patrick was involved with BJ on a legitimate level, but he became more interested in selling books and shilling for the casinos than offerring legitimate sound advice based on the mathematical facts. (Don S. can probably provide more info on this than I could.)

While I cannot honestly say that I have read any of Patrick's books from cover to cover, ANYBODY who just makes a blanket statement telling newbies to split 10's against a dealer's 5 and/or 6 as a matter of basic strategy, is IMHO a FRAUD, because he mathematics of such advice simply don't hold water.
Stick with authors that can back up their theories/ideas/beliefs with mathematics, SIMS, (and a ton of actual play,) and you will be doing yourself a big favor.
Bryce is great, but I question that AOII is such a great count for someone to start out with.
You can't go wrong with Wong, (Hey, that rhymes!) Schlesinger, Arnold Snyder, Revere, Thorp, etc. There are of course, others who's names don't come to my feeble mind at the moment, but in the minds of serious players, John Patrick is a joke.

Take care,
@^)
Cyclops

"Once upon a time Patrick was involved with BJ on a legitimate level, but he became more interested in selling books and shilling for the casinos than offerring legitimate sound advice based on the mathematical facts. (Don S. can probably provide more info on this than I could.)"

The description above sounds a lot more like Jerry Patterson than John Patrick (only the initials are the same!).

To my knowledge, Patrick has never been involved in any legitimate BJ activities his entire life. He was born dumb!

Don

How many casino employees pretend to be counters and then write books which sucker the newbies?

It must certainly be good for business and as high level casino management are likely to have high level contacts in the publishing business, why not? It's capitalism!

Who will prepare a list of bad books or books to be avoided?

My number one for beginners is Revere because I believe that for someone new to blackjack, he is the easiest to understand. (That's why his book is still considered to be a classic.) Once they've digested Revere (not too hard for anyone of reasonable intelligence) they are in a good position to move on to Wong. However, I do think that although Wong is essential, he is difficult for a newbie and therefore beginners are better off with Revere.

1. Basic Blackjack by Wong-Accurate basic strategy for common and uncommon rules in the 4, 6 and 8 deck games.

2. The Theory of Blackjack by Peter Griffin-The math is beyond 99% of the players, but Griffin provides accurate basic strategy for 1 and 2 decks as well as multi deck games. It has additional composition-dependent decisions such as when to hit 10, 2 v 4. Thus this book complements Wong's Basic Blackjack.

3. First counting system-KO, Red 7, HiLo or HiOpt 1

4. Revere's Playing Blackjack as a Business was the state of the art when it was written and for several years thereafter, but it does not give surrender basic strategy. It does not give basic strategy for Hit Soft 17. It advises not to play if there are bad players at the table. The fine points for single deck games and color charts make this book worth owning. Ignore the hatchet job on the HiOpt systems at the end of the book.

The books I have by JP are originals- He says never split
tens under any circumstances. There are altered, and edited
books using his name,face & image by Lyle Stuart.
Would you give me the date and publishing Co. of the book
you are talking about? One particular book has l00 less
pages than the original.

Just out of curiosity have you ever been absolutely dead
broke? No money,food,home, nothing but the clothes on your
back! Your God Complex is showing again.

You are completely right.
I was confusing them because of TARGET.
However, I am absolutely sure it was Patrick that advocated the two play strategies I listed above, because his picture was on the front of the book. The same one that is usually one the front of his books.
Take care,
@^)
Cyclops

The friend and I sort of lost touch with each other a couple of years ago, when we no longer worked together.
Besides, I told him to toss the Patrick book in the Trash, and he did, so I doubt he would remember which book it was either.
But it really was what Patrick advised to do. You don't forget a thing like that.

Take care,
@^)
Cyclops

You will find that book is edited, abridged and published
by Lyle Stuart. All originals are titled "So you want to
be a Gambler"-BL, Card counting,craps Etc. Only original
with a picture is Advanced Craps with Portriat on back.

The keys are "A Lyle Stuart Book" Copywright l99l.
The original copywrights were l983 for the basic book and
l986 for the card counting book, which in Lyle's version
is call advanced I think. Many things were removed or changed
and perhaps ADDED from "Winning at Casino Gambling" by
Lyle Stuart. John'S originals were self published, and I believe his present publisher is Carol Publishing Co. If the ten split
is in the "Advanced" version it is Stuart's not Patricks.
The l99l Copywrite is for the "Butchered" books which do not
serve the reader or John Patrick. Unfortunatly there are
more of the butchered books with his picture on them, than
the complete originals.

I don't have the book being discussed, but an article on johnpatrick.com (Free Gambling Tip #20 - Blackjack variations) gives a list of where JP says he differs with Basic Strategy charts. He also gives an amusing explanation for why he refuses to split 8s against dealer 10.

I'm curious as to how much EV is given up by this strategy, because I used to use John Patrick Basic Strategy myself. Before I did any real research into card-counting, etc., I learned how to play Blackjack from a $20 casino CD-ROM that happened to use John Patrick BS (pun intended) in its "strategy advice" feature. Laugh if you will, but at the time, it was an improvement for me. Now I know better.

For the curious, here's the article in its entirety (the site is in frames, so I can't just give a link):

"I just wanna go over a few variations to the time worn set of Basic Strategy charts that have been filtered down, lo these many years. Are these charts important in the playing of the game of Blackjack?

You bet your life they are . They give you the BEST MOVE TO MAKE.........based on your two initial cards, vs the dealers Up Card, the only thing that we can use to make our decisions.

However, I disagree with several of these suggestions and will lay them out here, with my opinion on one of them. Now this will not sit well with many �math wizards� who believe that the decisions they use are based on thousands of simulated runs, to tell us what is the best move to make in these situations.

My explanation for why I differ, has to do with what I believe to be the logical move in these situations. Here are a few of my differences

1) Split eights only against the dealers 2 thru 8.

2) Double ten vs dealers 3 thru 7

3) Double 11 vs dealers 3 thru 7 (I do not double vs 8 but that is your choice.

4) Split Aces vs dealers 3 thru 7 (I do not split vs 8 but that is your choice,

5) Split fives vs dealers 5 or 6

Those are a few that I have set aside and notice that there is no way I double the 10 or 11 nor split the Aces vs that dangerous deuce.

Let�s start with splitting eights vs that 9, 10, J, Q, K or Ace and I�ll use the queen as my example, but the theory applies to all of those cards.

You�re sitting with two eights and we�ll say you have a $5 chip on board. Dealer has a queen and a down card. Basic Strategy (BS) tells us to split and to place another $5 chip on the board.

Just for the sake of example we�ll say the dealer gives you a down card on each of those eights (I�m aware we play each hand out individually)

Now you have 8 with a down card and 8 with a down card. Think to yourself. If they gave you a choice as to which hand you would rather have (8 w/ a card or Q w/ a card, which would you choose?

The answer is obvious..........Q w/ a down card, because going in, you would have a stronger hand. But by splitting those eights, you put yourself in the position of risking an extra $5 and now giving yourself two hands, both inferior to the dealer who is sitting with Q and a card.

An argument could be made that having two eights vs the dealers Q is a bad hand. Naturally, but doubling your bet to make yourself now have two bad hands is not the answer. You are increasing the amount of money you have to bet, AND not improving your hand vs that powerful Queen.

Personally, I would surrender those two eights, in an effort to cut my original bet in half (to cut potential losses). Don�t give me the argument that they don�t have surrender......I would not play where there is no surrender option.

But if the games available to you NEVER offer surrender and you want to play BJ........then the hitting of those original two eights, vs that dealers power card is the right move. DO NOT increase the amount of your wager by splitting and by your own (obviously) opinion, now having two inferior hands to play with.

I don�t care that an argument could be made that over 1000 such decisions, you have a 2% better shot, or whatever pct. these math people put on these moves. Logically, you are not going to live long enough to have this happen to you 1000 times.

Besides, in a normal 2-3 hour session, this may only occur two or three times. When it does, don�t split and give yourself two weaker hands.

Hit those two eights vs the dealers 9 thru Ace and get to the next hand. That is the logical thing to do.....................JOHN PATRICK "

makes no sense to me at all. Do me a favor, don't bother any more. We don't think alike . . . thank God!

Don

He obviously has no understanding of the mathmatics of the game, and his response to those who do is to ridicule them.

The sad thing is that, if one is totally ignorant of the mathmatics of the game, his "strategy" has a certain twisted logic to it.

I wonder if the casinos send him checks every month.

Notice that most BJ books never have pictures of the author on them, due to the fact, one might assume, that they still occasionally actually play the game.

Patrick's ugly mug is plastered all over his books, website, etc. Draw your own conclusions.

Isn't that a postbusting offence?
Or do the rules not apply to some individuals?

Why not just come out and make it? Are you arguing in John Patrick's behalf? Do you want to tell us about all his wonderful qualities and his considerable blackjack knowledge? What is your point? You want to waste everyone's time on this page with a thread exalting the contributions of John Patrick to the BJ world? You're sicker than I originally thought.

Don

Have you ever been completely down and out. If you have not
DON'T be so quick to judge those who have (JP) and did
not have your benifits to help them back up. Get out of
that Ivory Tower.

I don't know wether you remember or notthat John's book was written
for the $5 bettor(or less) that could not afford the "BIG"
bet and perhaps did not draw Good cards. To be successful
at card counting you must have the luck to draw winning cards
and more luck to have those cards MATCH the big bet. It does
not take a degree to see that. However some people with
degrees can not see it at all. For those I wish them a DUCE
on every DD,& split UNTIL they wake up. I have been looking
at this part of the game since a Mensa type threw a count
system at me. The math does not work if you don't draw
the tickets. Another factor-some folks can not win a big bet
in any game. So Mr. Patrick has showed them a way to enjoy the games
with out losing every thing they have. You D have been there
and now have the good fortune to make the count and big bet
work for you--If it didn't I'll bet you would go back to JPs
methods rather than Quit. Mr. God can't see that for his EGO.