Casey

Anyone know anyone who's ever used this hidden BJ computer?

because, after you recover from the wounds you receive while "resisting arrest" you will be spending some serious time in prison!

Well, duh... you'd be nuts to use it in Vegas where it's flatly illegal. They won't even ship one to Nevada.

From the Casey site...

Q. Can Casey be used anywhere?
A. No. The following states do not allow "electronic devices" in their casinos: Illinois, Iowa, Mississippi, and Nevada. Casey can be used in other states that offer blackjack (about 40), including casinos outside the U.S.

You quoted the Casey website as stating that

A. No. The following states do not allow "electronic devices" in their casinos: Illinois, Iowa, Mississippi, and Nevada. Casey can be used in other states that offer blackjack (about 40), including casinos outside the U.S.

This is not true. Casey is clearly illegal in my state. Here is a quote from the gaming statue

(2) A person commits a felony punishable by imprisonment for not more than 10 years or a fine of not more than $100,000.00, or both, and, in addition, shall be barred for life from a gambling operation under the jurisdiction of the board if the person does any of the following:

(e) Except as otherwise provided by the board, uses or possesses with the intent to use a device to assist in doing any of the following:
(i) Projecting the outcome of a gambling game.
(ii) Keeping track of the cards played in a gambling game.
(iii) Analyzing the probability of the occurrence of an event relating to a gambling game.
(iv) Analyzing the strategy for playing or betting to be used in a gambling game.

I will include a link below.

It is likely that it is also illegal in other jurisdictions that the Casey people �forgot� to mention.

I would assume that Casey In your jurisdiction, unless you have very good authority to the contrary.

My advice is no one should play with a concealed BJ computer anyone in the world. The potential gain does not even come close to the risk. I've bailed out two friends who were arrested in Mississippi and another friend of mine spent a month in jail in the South of France. Both involved expensive cases to resolve the infractions and anyone who tells you they are legal is giving very poor advice.

The first thing to do if you're determined to use a BJ computer is GET A LAWYER. He can tell you why it's illegal in practically every state -- which it is. The other thing he can do is bail your sorry behind out of jail after you get busted.

Other countries aren't even a consideration. Just ask Tommy Hyland.

Note the very clever wording in the Casey blurb.

Q. Can Casey be used anywhere?
A. No.

That's for sure!

The following states do not allow "electronic devices" in their casinos: Illinois, Iowa, Mississippi, and Nevada.

Of course, nowhere does he claim this is a complete list.

Casey can be used in other states that offer blackjack (about 40), including casinos outside the U.S.

Yes, it can be used. In fact, it has been used. Doesn't mean it's legal!

Very simple proof this guy is full of you-know-what: he doesn't even mention New Jersey. The AC statutes, which have been copied into Indian gaming regs almost word for word in my own state of Wisconsin, and many others, is very well known and very clear.

ETF

the "strategy" cards fall under that same law? Or are they exempt as "provided by the board"?

Kevin, can you give some details of what your friends did, what they were accused of doing, and what happened after they were arrested?

It seems pretty clear from yours and other responses that it's illegal in a lot more places than they mention. I'm going to send this info to the Casey folks and see what they have to say for themselves.

They were using concealed BJ computers and were pulled up in France and in MISS. In France, they confiscated all the equipment, their money, and one of the two spent a month in jail.

The two in MISS were jailed for only a couple of days. After being bailed out, they had to make several trips back to the state to resolve the legal issues, which ended up being fairly expensive.

It is clearly not worth the risk. There are plenty of honest ways to beat the casinos with your brain. Also, there are some backwater places around the world where legal issues might be the least of your problems if they detect you with a computer and consider you a cheat.

They're only valuable in deeply dealt games and the less decks the better. Not really worth it today for the rare occasions you'll make a play based on a deviation the computer spots.

I would have assumed that a major benefit of the computer is that it is essentially keeping a side count of every rank. At any given point, it knows not just how many half-decks are yet to be played, but exactly how many cards, and it knows exactly how many of them are 4s, 9s, 10s, etc.

Every count system is just an approximation and a compromise between the information a player would like to use and what a human can reasonably remember and calculate on the fly without making errors. So the idea would be not only that the computer would make no errors but that it could deviate from BS with some frequency based on actual deck composition. I imagine also that Casey's betting recommendations (given as a % advantage at the start of each hand) would often vary from perfect application of any count system.

Just in terms of playing variation, anyone out there care to comment or estimate frequency of BS deviation in a typical Strip shoe game game for....
1) Hi-Lo with Illustrious 18 indices?
2) Uston APC with lots of indices?
3) Wong Halves with lots of indices?
4) Theoretically perfect play?

This is all separate from the issue of legality, which the company tells me they're researching again. Yesterday I found a couple of 9-year-old but interesting BF articles specifically on concealed computers. You'll appreciate the titles:

Part I: Blackjack Computers (Your Ticket to the Big House)
by Thomas B. Duffy, Attorney at Law
http://www.bjfonline.com/Library/bighouse.htm

Part II: Blackjack Computers (Your Ticket to the Big House)
by Thomas B. Duffy, Attorney at Law
http://www.bjfonline.com/Library/duffyii.htm

Just in terms of playing variation, anyone out there care to comment or estimate frequency of BS deviation in a typical Strip shoe game game for....
1) Hi-Lo with Illustrious 18 indices?
2) Uston APC with lots of indices?
3) Wong Halves with lots of indices?
4) Theoretically perfect play?

I'd hazard about 0.05%. This is a complete waste of time.

Maybe I'm reading you wrong... are you really saying that the differences among the four systems I mentioned only show up one in 2,000 hands?

Or are you saying that the theoretic advantage of perfect play is at most .05%?

Or something else altogether?

If the playing efficiency of various count systems ranges from .5 to .7, then I have to believe that playing based on actual card distribution, if possible, is a meaningful advantage.

More subtle point that perhaps some of the math whizzes here can clarify... I'd assume that part of the reason I18 captures most of the benefit available from the zillions of possible index plays is that count systems are so rough. In other words, it's the inaccuracy of the count that keeps many index plays from being useful.

I misread the question. Ignore my response.

If the playing efficiency of various count systems ranges from .5 to .7, then I have to believe that playing based on actual card distribution, if possible, is a meaningful advantage.

Not really. Indices contribute about .2% to a counters edge in a 6-deck shoe.
Incidentally 100% playing efficiency doesn't contribute anything like 100% of the possible gain from truly optimal play departures.

More subtle point that perhaps some of the math whizzes here can clarify... I'd assume that part of the reason I18 captures most of the benefit available from the zillions of possible index plays is that count systems are so rough. In other words, it's the inaccuracy of the count that keeps many index plays from being useful.

Again, not really. Count systems can indeed be very inaccurate for certain plays. But using a hypothetical perfect system for each play only gets you at best a few tenths of a %.
Learning how to cutoff track gets you more edge for a thousandth of the effort, difficulty and expense. Substitute "cutoff tracking" with your favourite non-counting technique and its still accurate.

Incidentally 100% playing efficiency doesn't contribute anything like 100% of the possible gain from truly optimal play departures.

Yes it does, by definition, at least for the hard-standing decisions. What am I missing?

Yes it does, by definition, at least for the hard-standing decisions. What am I missing?

Perhaps it does by definition. But we use the definition incorrectly. We refer to 100% playing efficency when we talk about creating a hypothetical perfect linear system for each possible play. Now, blackjack isn't linear and neither are the individual playing decisions.
If you had a combinatorial analyzer capable of analyzing the exact deck composition and working out the perfect play it would, especially at deep penetration, occassionally give different recommendations than that of a perfect linear count system for that play.

If I'm going to spend a bunch of money just to get caught and thrown in jail I'm going to make it something noteworthy, front page stuff you know. I'd need a driver but this is what I'd do. I'd get me a Jeep and a high power deer rifle and go tearing around shooting those stupid inflatable animals that car dealerships use to advertise. Man those things make me mad, who bases car purchase decisions on inflatable animals? Anyway I certainly wouldn't do it to try to cheat at blackjack, I may be a little crazy but I'm not stupid. Anyway you computer wearers should play at indian casinos, yeah that would be cool, let me know what happens.

Jeez, what a bunch of worriers in here. Throughout this thread nobody has advocated "cheating" or doing _anything_ illegal. Nobody wants to go to jail, and nobody wants anyone else here to go to jail, okay? Move on.

The essential questions are:
(a) How much advantage -- if any -- is there to be gained with Casey?
(b) In what states -- if any -- can Casey be LEGALLY used?

Winning blackjack is a game of many subterfuges. There is no "honest" way to win, since no casino wants any player with an advantage -- however derived -- at their tables. Nobody here is to be faulted for seeking maximum long-term advantage by _any_ legal means possible.

You can perfectly apply the most complex count system ever invented? Congratulations. You can't count to 5 but are expert at reading dealer tells or can spot a front-loading opportunity from across the street? So much the better. You're a winning player but convince the casinos that you're a loser so you can keep taking their money? Good for you!

The issue here isn't right vs. wrong or smart vs. stupid. It's what approaches are successful and what are the costs and risks involved.

Casinos have tried to get counting declared cheating, and have lost. In at least some states, there are explicit laws on the books under which using Casey would be a felony. IF there are places Casey can be legally and profitably used, why wouldn't you want to know?