Becoming a Dealer (Richard)?

Is it really difficult to land a position as a break-in dealer for BJ these days (other than the big "W")? How much can a dealer expect to earn? .....Richard? Would you recommed the lifestyle of a dealer?
Just curious. Thanks.

To land a job as a BJ dealer is going to be next to impossible to obtain, most joints want multi game dealers.

Expect to break in downtown and if you are 'good' move on within a couple of months. You could make it to one of the coveted jobs within 5 years if all goes well.

At the moment the two top dogs in town are Caesars and the Hard Rock, where something in the region of 80k per year can be made (Caesars is a 3 day week)

The lifestyle of a dealer is the same as the lifestyle of any other shift worker, how you embrace it is up to you.

I hope this has helped until Richard can answer for you.

All the best

H

It is not a pleasant occupation, no matter what you may think. It is servile. There are few if any benefits. There is no job security. New dealers begin on the graveyard shift. They take a lot of crap from their superiors. They have no inferiors as so to speak.

Earning range from about $10 per hr. to above $20 per hour at the better casinos, and yes the tokes are not only shared they are 100% taxable as dealers are paid via a weekly casino check.

For Example, the dealers that I have known at Caesars Atlantic City earn approx. $21/hr. and those that I am friendly with at Turning Stone casino earn approx. $12/hr with both of these "toke rates", as they are called, being unchanged over recent years.

Casinos are NOT required to pay minimum wage - as gratuities are paid, a la taxi drivers, waiters, etc.

First let me say that there are different personalities of dealers as everyone has experienced. Some are gamblers, some have never set foot in a casino before becoming dealers, some are bad at math, some have bad people skills, while others are overly friendly and chit-chatty, etc. Me, personally, I've always liked games ever since I was a kid including poker and blackjack. I've grown up on game shows and learning to figure things out on my own while trying to find every loophole possible to "beat the system" in everything I do.

Not to get off topic, but for example, locally (and around the country) there is a place I like to go called Dave & Busters. It is an arcade mainly for adults, i.e. bar, restaurant, as well as for kids, i.e. Video Games, ticket games with a ticket redemption center, you know, stuffed toys and crap. Well, in the ticket area, for 2,000 tickets you can get a $10 gift certificate. So, 3 years ago I put $20 on my player card. (They use a magnetic card reader instead of tokens, as most arcades do). With my 20 dollars I earned 7,000 tickets. Enough to use 4,000 to get my 20 dollars back and have 3,000 left over for free. So, I did it again and again. I haven't paid a single penny to that place in the 3 years I've been going there. One night I took 150,000 tickets out of there on $200 worth of play. I can use the gift certificates in the restaurant for a free meal. I also use my extra tickets for a Playstation 2 with games, autographed sports memorabilia, electric razors, can opener, and many other small appliances, vcrs, tvs, Pro-V1 golf balls (which I sold to golfers for $$), the list goes on and on. That is just one example of what I'm talking about.

As for dealing, (that is the topic I'm supposed to be writing about) I enjoyed going to casinos since I was 21, I wanted to try and "figure out" the edge, some way around the system. What better way than to become a dealer myself and get many hours of "playing" time not only from a players stand point, but also from the other side of the table. I figured I would get the inside info on how to really beat the game and learn casino operations at the same time. I thought it would be, ya know, much like a crook likes to "scout" the area before he pulls a job.

So 5 years ago I applied at the Grand Victoria Casino. I worked about a year doing the grunt work as a Money Runner. It was very behind the scenes. Easy job, and got to hold millions of dollars a day. It was ok, but I did want the dealer job. Next, a slot attendant job opening came up, I did that for a year. I learned how slots REALLY operate, and got some hands on work, on the casino floor. So after 2 years at the casino I finally applied and got accepted for a dealer school. I already knew the game but there are aspects of the game as a player you can not learn unless you actually start dealing. Watching for people trying to cheat, making sure every bet is table minimum every hand, making people signal on pat hands, using left hand for spots 1 and 2, and right hand for 3 -7, walking the game, shuffling, chip handling and so forth.

As far as lifestyle, it is no different really than any J-O-B. Don't be decieved by the break every hour, on an 8 hour shift thats about 1:40 worth of break time. Most jobs give you 1:30 worth of break time. Hour lunch and 2 coffee breaks. Along with office chit chat and other time wasters. The pay? Every casino is different. A 40 hour week, 52 weeks a year in my casino, with tips before tax is about 45,000. The same as it was 10 years ago. So what happens in another 10 years? I am comfortable with my paycheck, I even sign the E.O. list just about every other day,(E - Early O - Out) so sometimes my check suffers a bit when Friday rolls around. Some casinos you can earn substantially more or less. Depends on the table limits and number of dead weight dealers, unless you can manage to get lucky and get into a casino where you keep your own tips. Then its all on you. If you are a dick, then you'll get paid exactly what you are worth. If you are outgoing and can show an upbeat attitude then we'll see who comes out on top.

So, if you want to be a dealer. You don't necessarily need a formal education, but you still need to be aggressive and show that you really want to do it. You might need to start at the bottom or in another position and transfer is your best bet. Also better to start out of your area and into a fresher market, maybe a riverboat. Then you can transfer to a sister company, pending your company policies on that.

Hope the info helps.

Any sick days, holiday pay? Richard do you work in Vegas? Would you describe your casino as mid-level strip or small time downtown establishment, etc?
Thanks for the great insight - I appreciate it!

will start offering a fair game. They actually experimented with it once, and the rumor is they didn't suffer. In fact, everyone I heard about, for some strange reason, actually lost while this was being conducted.

Of course, I'm sure that Richard knows exactly what I'm talking about. In fact, it was the only time in the GV's history, i.e., from their very beginning, that they actually offered a fair game.

So about it Richard, ya gonna spill the beans?

cheers
bfb

No sick pay. We do get 401(k), HMO or PPO but not totally free, one week vacation, two weeks after 3 years, free food and parking (although food is rather crappy, some people still bring their own). GVC is a riverboat casino in Elgin, IL (chicago area). Our BJ limits most of the time after 8pm are ALL $25 minimum, and on weekends every spot is filled sometimes and we got 24 BJ tables.

Fair game? Its been the same game for the 5 years I've been there and unchanged from what other dealers have told me. What conditions are you refering to? I'm not keeping a trade secret here, I just don't know what you mean.

what do you think constitues a fair game. Let's see now. The illustrious Grand Victoria Casino in the thriving metropolis of Elgin, Illinois, has had consistently one of the worst games in the midwest for a very long time.

6 Deck, H17/DAS with an average penetration of 66%. If you've been there for five years, then you've contributed to these horrible conditions. And begging for tips I'm sure.

Now there was a time about a year ago, where all of a sudden, for the very first time, The GV started to cut only 1 deck of six. A playable game. It was also just a short lived experiment. So tell us Richard, what was the purpose? It only lasted about 5 weeks. You can tell us. After all, you are on an advantage player site, now aren't you. Share and share alike my momma used to say. :)

Now we know that there has been a captive clientele there, as it is fairly nearby some of the Chicago area's wealthiest people. And certainly is close enough to almost all of the area's wealthiest suburbs, which has been a goldmine for the GV.

How much is enough pal?

Are you cutting off a deck? Or are you cutting off two or more?

Inquiring players would like to know.

cheers
bfb

It was to get more hands in before the shuffle, because it was the time when the casino tax went up for Illinois to 70% BEFORE the casino could pay bills or payroll or anything (gross). Instead of laying off workers they decided to increase customer service by not charging anything to get in the door. For that short time the floor was watching for advantage players very closely. Normally we cut off 1 1/2 to 2 decks. We did not cut off 1 deck to invite card counters or help APs.
We have the best game in the area especially for card counters. Split to 4 hands, DAS, Hit soft 17 by the way is good playing conditions for counters. Only Empress offers the same conditions.
Not even Trump offer surrender anymore from what I've heard.

you have no clue as to what is a good and playable game.

My suggestion: Try not to give any advice on blackjack websites.

And just because other casinos have lousy conditions, doesn't make your casino's conditions any more playable. One last note. The Hollywood has a superior game to the GV's.

But thanks for your answer, as we now can judge the quality of your posts.

cheers
bfb

How can you say Hollywood is a better game? Low limit games are 8 deck split to only 3 hands and hit soft 17. High limit games are 6 deck stay on all 17s, and still only split 3 times. Not to mention they cut just as deep, and they're shuffle is more riffles which makes clump tracking harder. I really don't understand your gripe about GVC blackjack. What? Did you lose your wad there one too many times?

I think many people here who have seen some of my advice and posts will back me up on it. All of it is information backed up from books and hard statistical facts.

Here's a post I made to you in a different thread. It's appropriate here so, at the risk of being redundant, I'll post it here as well.

Richard,

Grand Vic Elgin offers 6D, H17, DAS with a WHOPPING 66% pen! That's a SCORE of 8.13 and N0 > 120,000 for play-all with a 1-16 spread. Backcounting brings the SCORE up to a miserable 21.91. You may not want to invest too much time looking for counters as, by definition, APs who only count are quite unlikely to play there. Also, since the house edge over a BS player is 0.63, many good players, APs or not, will avoid this game.

Many pit lurkers will read this and think of it as a positive. However, we all know that games with better rules generate more overall revenue. After all, why would the ploppies play the game if they didn't think it was beatable? You can only hold players by the ankles and shake the money loose from their pockets for so long before they stop volunteering their cash. They may play the slots in pursuit of a jackpot, but they'll have little reason to play games that offer neither a jackpot or a potential of small wins. Then what will you all do for a living?

By the way, Richard, if you want to know what we need in a game, your game with S17 has a play-all SCORE of 14.64 (yes, S17 is better for counters). Your game with LS and H17 has a SCORE of 15.40 [LS helps APs as well as casinos (it's frequently misplayed)]. As you noted, deeper pen means greater revenue for the casino while allowing more potential for APs. This is win-win as well. Many wanna-be counters will lose more betting into nothing, and ploppies will press their bets as the count drops. And deeper pen (1 deck cut off) brings the SCORE of your game up to 28.08. Not great for play-all, but something to play into (fine for backcounting). Win-win for all.

Here's the deal (and not a pun). Now you have to pay real close attention here....ok

Stand on soft 17 is better than hit on soft 17. This may be hard to comprehend, as I'm sure you get to see many of the GV morons stand on soft 17's, but really, having the casino standing on soft 17 is better than hitting on soft 17 for players.

Now, for the next (patronizing) lesson....ready for this one.... six decks dealt with a penetration of 75% is better than six decks dealt with 66% penetration.

To review: Deeper pentration with standing on soft 17 means it's a better game for everyone than H17 with 66% penetration. And the 66% is being kind.

Clear?

I'm not normally condescending, as it's not my style. However, when people make outrageous statements in casino's defense, in which they are clearly wrong, someone needs to set the record straight.

You work for a casino that's scared to offer a decent game. Deal with it. (The GV is not alone in this in the Chicago area. The Harrahsshoe is even worse. Although they stand on soft 17, their penetration is consistently 55-60%. But we're discussing the GV, as that's where you work.)

And not to mention that they are really worried, and have done whatever it takes, to block casino expansion in Illinois, as well as the 10th license, which for now is Rosemont, and should greatly effect the GV's profit margins.

Now, you can tell us....are you a dual rate employee? I'm guessing you are.

cheers
bfb

You are a company man listening to company hype. 66% pen is pathetic. The game there is the worst I've seen anywhere. Worse, even, than Potawatomi.

By the way, $25 minimums at every table at any time of the day or week == SHEER GREED. There is no purpose to this except to shear the lambs of their wool a whole lot faster. The first casinos in the Midwest had table minimums of one (1) dollar. They paid the lights; they paid the dealers' salaries; everything.

ETF

First off, I don't defend any casino, but you are misrepresenting the facts. You can shop around, table to table, at any casino and find 80% pen if you look hard enough. GVC dealing procedure calls for 1 1/2 deck (72%) to 2 deck (66%) cut off. That doesn't mean everybody follows it. You may have one dealer cutting the shoe in half while the next table over is only cutting off 1 deck.

Second, for basic strategy, stand on all 17s is better, but for APs hit soft 17 is better. Do I even need to explain it?

Third, why would you assume I'm a dual rate, which Im not. Does everybody think that just because an employee works for a company that they are interested in that companies profits. I could not care the least bit about how much money the GVC or any casino makes. I don't get any added benefits or raises if the casino does well. Im not an investor in the company, I punch in, pick my nose for 10 hours and punch out.

Now, since you started this conversation just waiting to argue about something, I'm not going to answer any more comments in this thread about this subject unless you have a specific question with proven statistics in plain English please. Don't come to me with some numbers to the nth degree divided by xy squared.

ET Fan...I do respect your opinions but, keep in mind that even though GVC has 25 dollar table running all the time, also remember that those 25 tables are full! Casinos are not a public service, or a charitable organization that helps suffering communities, they are a business. Why wouldn't a business do everything in thier power to maximize profits. I'll go over to the Indiana casinos and see many 5 dollar tables without any players sitting. Its all about simple supply and demand.

Many people like to complain about casinos being greedy, but nobody forces anybody to walk through the doors. I don't like the fact that restaurants charge 2.50 - $3.00 for a soda. It only costs 8 cents to make a 21. oz drink, (thats the same as a medium at McDonalds). So why do they charge a %2,500 markup? Because, people will pay it. So, as soon as people stop filling up 25 dollar tables then the casino will start lowering the limits.

Also, about the 66% pen, just go to a table where the dealer is giving generous pen. 66% is the high end of GVCs cut off, not the average.

for APs hit soft 17 is better. Do I even need to explain it?

Yes, you do. Will you explain this to all of us? I already posted the statistics on why S17 is better for APs above this post (the reply called "It's easy"). Thanks.

The goods and bads of being a dealer in Las Vegas,

Benefits:
For the most part they are good. Every chain is different and even some casinos within the same corporation are different. For instance Mirage kept their olds benefits from Wynn the same when they merged with MGM. MGM properties have PTO-Paid Time Off, probably the most desirable of all benefits, employees can take paid days off whenever they want, and they usually earn these days at a rate of 1 or 2 per month depending on length of employment. Some properties such as Coast, pay the entre amount of your health insurance, but all properties offer medical, dental, & health insurance either free or very discounted($20 a month). Most casinos offer 401k (or something very similar such as pension or profit sharing) but some are better than others. Some properties will match anywhere from 2-4% into your account, while others make you put all of it into company stock, as I have heard is the case at Mandalay Properties. Rampart/Cannery I have heard do not match anything. Standard vacation is 1 week after 1 year, 2 weeks after 2 years, 3 weeks after 6 years, 4 weeks after 12 years, as will be the case at the new Wynn Las Vegas. Also, all casino employees in Las Vegas receive one free meal in the employee cafeteria per shift, which in my view is an excellent and cost saving benefit. The employee cafeteria is similar to each casino's buffet.

Wages:
Tips, called "tokes" very widely, from approx $10 a day at the Western, to sometimes well over $1,000 a day. All Vegas casinos combine and split tokes, most do it over a 24 hour perdiod, some go shift for shift. A few weeks ago a customer at the Venetian took out a $20,000 marker, 12 hours later he ran it into a few hundred thousand, and started putting the dealers up for 1,000 a hand for many hours. Every Ventian dealer working made over $800 a day for a few days in a row. The most well known big tipper is Australian Kerry Packer who owns 95% of Australia's electrical power sources. He used to play at Rio years ago until Harrahs took over and ran him out, now he plays at either MGM Grand or Bellagio. A few months ago dealers at Bellagio made approx. $1,000 in one day after one of his big wins lead him to give the dealers over $100,000. Surprisingly Hard Rock is no longer the place to be, as they have ran out many big players for various reasons. Manadalay Bay, Palms and Caesars are all doing very well right now. Caesars rarely has a day below 200, and Palms is very up and down, as they have many large drawing events, such as playboy weekends when 300-400 days are the norm. The low end is the Western at about 10 a day. The El Cortez makes about $20 a day, Fremont, 4 Queens, and Fitz are all around 50-80 a day. Off Strip properties like Sunset Station, Orleans, and Rampart all average 90-110 a day. Off Strip properties are more steady, as Strip properties depend almost entirely on high limit room action. Although dealers at these high end properties have many scores, on average dealers at Bellagio, Mandalay Bay and Caesars made $70,000 last year, if they worked 40 hours every week, although most dealers didnt quite make that as it is very common, and very easy to ask for an EO and leave work early for the day. New dealers on the Strip are usually extra board and get 3-4 days week, new dealers stay on extra board for anywhere from 3 months to 1 1/2 years. New dealers at Caesars start as dual-rates, they are either dealers or floor supervisors depending on the casinos needs for the day. Also they only receive 3 days a week until they get off extra board, meaning new dealers at Caesars should expect to only make $40,000 their first year there. Floor Supervisors generally make from 170-200 on the Strip, downtown its closer to 140 a day, the Western last I heard was 90 a day for a floor job.

The Emotional Side:
Locals casinos deal with customers who are miserable, degenrates, and they wear you down after a while. The Strip is differnt but not necessary better. Customers usually expect to lose and are there to have a good time, but are more disrespectful, and more drunk. Very high turn over rate for dealers. You must learn to become a neutral third party with no emotion, or else everything will eat away at you as you take peoples money over and over. 98% of dealers hate customers and want to beat them, and care about nothing other than tokes they dropped their last hour. They constantly complain in the EDR(employee dining room) about the last table being full of stiffs(people who dont tip). Anytime you had a dealer who you thought was actually a nice person and wanted you to win, I'd be willing to bet they bad mouthed you all the way back to the break room. Dealers have huge over expectations for tipping, if they dont get 20% of your win, or $1 every hand for $10 players, or a nickel every hand for anyone playing black or higher, they hate you. Everyone wants out of the business, but none of them every leave cause they are mostly under educated people with below average social skills, most have no street experience, and they all have no way of making equivalent money doing anything else. Also a large amount gamble in their free time and need to make big bucks to supprt their addiction. Few dealers know basic strategy very well. Management is usually high strung people who dealt for many years and see no reason to be nice to anyone. Of course there are always exceptions.

Getting Started:
Most dealers start off at break-in houses, which are casinos that will take dealers with no experience, which include Western, El Cortez, O Sheas, Casino Royale, Gold Coast, and a few other places downtown. The three major dealing schools are PCI, LV School of dealing(near the Rio), and the course taught by CCSN. BJ is usually about 2-4 weeks long and costs about $300. Craps is 4-6 weeks long and cost about 300-400 dollars. You only need one or the other to break in. Craps is more in demand, and will help you get on the Strip later on. Generally they offer job assistance, and some of them have contracts with smaller casinos. If you go to PCI, expect to be placed at El Dorade or Jokers Wild, but if you go to LV School of Dealing, which is owned by Coast Properties, they can place you as high as the Suncoast making 40K a year if you are young adn white. If you're not young and white but you speak good English expect to be placed at the Gold Coast, and if you have trouble with English expect Western or El Cortez. Or better yet do the smarter thing and go to poker school. There is a severe poker dealer shortage in town due to the recent surge of poker, but be aware, if that popularity dies down you'll be in trouble. I know a guy who went to school for poker, got a job dealing at the Plaza, 2 weeks later got hired at Horseshoe, 2 weeks after that Golden Nugget, and 2 weeks after that Mirage. All poker dealers keep their own tips, and Mirage dealers make in the high 100's a night. When you break in, make sure you learn every game the casino offers, cause once you're on the Strip they no longer allow you to learn games on your breaks. Learn the wheel (roulette), pai gow, andmini bacc as soon as possible. Wanna make the Strip a little faster? Learn Pai Gow tiles, Big Bacc, and maybe even European Roulette.

If you have any other questions about an area I didnt cover let me know. Or if anyone else has a question off topic about anything at all Vegas related, I will answer anything about anything for a few more days. Cheers everyone.

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