Back offs, Barring, etc. ?

I am curious as to how a casino takes action against a counter. I understand the "game" they are playing. It is in their best interest to have a game in a casino that has a reputation for being beatable. That will tend to draw in players that might otherwise never gamble in a casino. Then, if they detect that player is "good" enough to beat them, they can half shoe him or even ask him not to play. That seems easy to me. I have been playing for only a short time, but I think I could easily detect a counter at the table, so I know that they can. I have no qualms with them preferrential shuffling, but am concerned about barrings and such.

1) If I were to go to a casino and be winning several days in a row, but on the next day, I was actually losing, could I still get the boot, being down money?

2) Also, how does that look to the other players at the table? Like if "they" were to start winning, they might also get expelled? Seems like that would run off a lot of the "basic strategy" players and "ploppies" that pay the bills!

3) If you get the dreaded "No more Blackjack" and you inquire as to why, what will they say?

I'm probably not good enough (YET) to be concerned about this, but it just keeps nagging at me. Can anybody clear this up for me? Thanks...

1. Yes, definitely they will bar you when you are losing if they think you are a winning player.

2. The other players find it interesting and it makes a great story that they will repeat over dinner for months to come but doesn't effect their play.

3. They will say something like, "You're just too good for us".

You should leave immediately, don't say anything, and DO NOT cash out your chips. Come back another time to cash out. They get their best photos of you at the cashiers cage. Do not give them ID. No matter what they tell you they have no legal right to see it. This may lead to a hassle but you are better off not having them know your real name.

These are my experiences

1) If I were to go to a casino and be winning several days in a row, but on the next day, I was actually losing, could I still get the boot, being down money?

Yes, it's happened to me several times. I done nothing but lose and still been tossed. Once they know your counting your gone.

2) Also, how does that look to the other players at the table? Like if "they" were to start winning, they might also get expelled? Seems like that would run off a lot of the "basic strategy" players and "ploppies" that pay the bills!

I use to think that also. I always make them back me off in front of other players. The player don't seem to care. The ploppies are brain dead zombies.

3) If you get the dreaded "No more Blackjack" and you inquire as to why, what will they say?

There are many things you will hear. Every thing from " We don't have to give you a reason" to " Your to good for us " Talking to them is useless. Just pick up your chips and leave.

1) If I were to go to a casino and be winning several days in a row, but on the next day, I was actually losing, could I still get the boot, being down money?

Absolutely. They've got your money, why should they give you an opportunity to win it back? Once they make up their mind that you are a counter, you're toast.

2) Also, how does that look to the other players at the table? Like if "they" were to start winning, they might also get expelled? Seems like that would run off a lot of the "basic strategy" players and "ploppies" that pay the bills!

Sometimes they will try to be discreet about it. "Would you mind stepping away from the table, sir." Then they will give you the word, out of earshot of the other players. Anyway, the ploppies don't care.

Although, one time I got backed off at a place and walked to the casino across the street where I had good cover and my action was welcome. A ploppy followed me, sat down at the table next to me, and loudly asked, "What was that all about across the street?" Needless to say, I made a quick exit.

3) If you get the dreaded "No more Blackjack" and you inquire as to why, what will they say?

It varies. They may be polite: "You're just too good for us," formal: "You are welcome to play any game in the house except blackjack," or occasionally downright nasty: "You know damn well why. Now get the hell out of here."

Regardless, the thing to do is just quietly and quickly leave. As others have mentioned, cash in your chips later. Surveillance will be monitoring the cage when you are backed off in order to get a nice clear shot of you.

There is no point in arguing or making a scene - you are not going to change their minds. Besides, if you go quietly they will be less likely to remember you when you come back six months later with an altered appearance and a different name.

Parker,

I always hear about the "Hollywood" shot at the cage. Is there any reason to believe that the pic there will be better than the one at the table? Anyone know if the cameras are higher res?

Thanks,

motheye

Every one her has been so... helpful. I "lurk" alot and participate infrequently, but always get useful answers. One day (soon), I will be a professasl! :) thanks all...

At the cage the cameras are closer and have a better angle.

and you should never frequent a place that hassles you in any way. Don't play their machines, stay at their hotels and play any of their games or eat in their restaurants. Their in the business of separating you from your money and they need access to you to do so. There are plenty of casinos to choose from.

Rather than play cat and mouse, tell your freinds and neighbors about the place, if there are no mice the cats will soon starve. Once they get the reputation of barring players, it'll be a matter of time before they see the effect on their bottom line. I believe this site sould have a list of casinos that barr players for using their heads.
It'll be a list that casinos will shutter to be on. It's not in our best interest to frequent these places. It's not in our interest to let them quietly barr players without other players knowing because every player likes to think that he or she will eventually be able to continually beat the casinos. Destroy the illusion and you'll destroy the casinos.

Uhhh.... that would be all of them.

Even where they cannot outright bar you by law, they will find other excuses to have you removed, or they will take other types of counter-measures to make your visit miserable or unplayable.

Besides, when ploppies see someone backed off, they immediately think 'cheating'. It is too unbelievable to them that the nice casino would remove someone for getting lucky and winning.

and saying they all do, isn't so. I witnessed a player with five coins infront of him and he placed a chip on top of each coin as cards were played. It was laughable to say the least. I saw another player casually moving chips from one pile to another, only he was so noisey playing with his chips that your attention was automatically drawn to him.

BTW, glad to see your postings are a little less sarcastic and more informative.

Time to put the errant casinos on the hot seat. Also, it's time to start telling the casinos what we players like and don't like. Don't underestimate the power of the consumer.

If a player has to rely on stacking chips to count, then he was probably already evaluated and seen to not be any threat.

I should say all casinos will bar, or find other ways to eject, "winning" counters.

Of course, some are dumb enough to also bar losing counters, but that is a different story.

I hear your 'consumer' argument. The unfortunate fact is there is a huge population of ploppies out there who could care less about any rules, conditions, or likelyhood of winning. They come in with huge amounts of money that they know they are going to lose, and the more they lose the happier they seem to be.

All they want is free drinks, and a free meal after they have dropped a tidy little sum at the tables. The only thing that prevents the casinos from just reaching into their pockets and just taking all their money, before they kick their butts out the door, is the fact that they like to play for a little while before losing all. If the game causes them to lose too quickly, they won't play as often.

Try telling a clueless ploppy you have been barred from a casino for counting and winning. The standard reply is "Naw, couldn't be. You must have been doing SOMETHING!"

.. you do. Where advantage players as a "consumer group" have the power to sway casinos policies regarding backoffs/barrings, and we can make them shudder to be on a list.

Sorry, but SOTSOG's right and you're wrong. You are not dealing with realities.

people are a lot smarter than you give them credit for. Everyone is on a learning curve when it comes to BJ and other casino games and as players lose they will eventually seek out info that will help them.
This site is a good example. Not everyone has to be convinced in order to make a difference. Now that the internet is here, it's a whole new ballgame. I've directed many players to this site rather than try to convince them to play differently and have been impressed by how well imformed some new players are.

If you want to win you will have to be skill, that is in disguise. Anybody can count cards, the real skill is in cover and disguise.

Casinos are offering a beatable game for fun, not work. If you play small you get away with it but if you want the money then you have to use your skill. It's a free economy, no one csan stop you if you can do it.

Cherish the barring, if everybody can do it easily then there will be no money to be made.

in my extensive travels it is seldom that I find, in an entire casino, even 1 player who has any important blackjack skills. Sometimes I don't see another skilled player for an entire weeks trip.

Fact is, the casinos don't want players who understand the game and don't care if we ever set foot in their place. The casinos only want idiots who expect to lose and don't mind doing so. They try and convince these players that its all about entertainment and not about the money.