I've heard some horror stories about what has happened to some people when being back-roomed. How would you feel and what would you do if a couple of security boys said to you: "Your playing days are over ..... and your coming with us".
What is the law doing to protect a person�s civil rights in this regard? Especially if all they did was use there brain to gain a slight edge at BJ.
Stealth Bomber
I have been backroomed in various ways in the past, but that was long ago. Today they will never take me in the backroom as I have not broken any law. They may ask me to come with them, but I never would. I will simply head for the door. In the event they try, MAKE LOUD NOISE. Yell out to the others to call the police as an illegal detention is going on. Yell out a phone number for your lawyer. Yell out to your friends across the casino (even though they are not there) that they are taking you to the back room. Crowds and witnesses upset them. Make a spectacle. Do not allow them to take your picture. I carry my cell phone in the event I need to call 911. Most barrings do not involve the backroom. They just tell you in various unpleasant ways to leave.
I am reminded of an incident long, long ago at the Ramada in Laughlin. I was being detained at the table by a whole squadron of security drones. As I began to leave, they tried to stop me. I told them to take their hands of me as I continued for the door. As I continued my walk they followed me. I was forced to make a major decision on the spot. In my pocket I had some pepper spray (which I had never taken out). I yelled loudly at them to stay away from me and for others to call the police. If grabbed, should I use it? I had many thousands of dollars on me at the time. A tough question. Fortunately, I got out before these cretins did anything.
I kinda like the idea of pepper spray. Before your post, I was thinking about providing them with a knuckle sandwich. Hey, if they violate your civil rights and handle you in threatening manner all while on video tape? (rhetorical ?) Remember, they are not police. Even if your suspected of cheating, they have no right to back-room you?
Stealth Bomber
Chappy: If you yell and scream in a casino full of non-advantage players, everyone will think you're drunk and being disorderly or maybe even crazy. They will see the security people as heroes. I suggest that if you are asked to follow security to the back room that you politely and rationally request to speak to the casino manager or the security supervisor. Tell them that you have not broken any laws and if they feel otherwise, they should call the police or the gaming people. Otherwise you understand that your business is not appreciated and therefore you will leave their property this instant with no resistance. If they still want to hold you, you might add that you have not broken any laws this will be considered kidnapping. It helps if other people hear you say this. They know this and that�s why most casino people ask you to step away from the table first. Casinos have the right to detain people that they suspect have committed a crime against the casino or against another player (by law they must post signs stating these rules through out the casino). Yelling and screaming will only give them the right to mace and club you while yelling �stop resisting.� Never attempt to use force or a weapon of any sort to resist being back-roomed because these will be the first charges addressed in a court of law. Surveillance will have everything on video but the audio only starts recording once you�re in the holding area.
One more thing, casinos are considered �Public Places� which allows them to take your picture. This does not mean that you can�t stick your tongue out or shield your face while they�re taking your picture.
Your idea is not without merit though. You might print your message of "call the police, my lawyer, ghost busters, anyone; I�m being held against my will" on a card and hand those out to people while you're being escorted off by security.
-DVC
Thanks for your response DVC. Most of what you said is very sensible and conservative. However, I don�t agree with one of your remarks:
>Yelling and screaming will only give them the right to mace and club you �..
I don�t believe that anyone has the right to club or mace another person that does not pose a physical threat to others. Not even trained police have this right. Don�t you agree?
Other questions & comments:
1) I also don�t believe that they should have the right to forcibly detain someone in an area that is out of the public view.
2) What if one of there thugs physically violates you (your civil rights). Is it then legal to defend yourself and throw a strong uppercut to the jaw and run out? Keep in mind my friends, there was no cheating in this scenario that started the confrontation. Just good old fashioned brain power playing abilities.
Stealth Bomber
Yelling out to others in the casino notifying them that you are being taken against your will is probably the best thing one could do. Requesting that someone call the police causes several beneficial things to happen:
A) out of the hundreds in the casino at least one WILL call the police as many do not like casino personnel to begin with;
B) it embarasses the security drones and makes them aware that hundreds of people have been notified of their wrong doing. This makes it far less likely that bad things do not happen in that back room;
C) creates witnesses in case something does happen
What you suggest is both comical and naive. Handing them a card explaining your rights (assuming these people can even read) is a naive way to accomplish nothing. Perhaps you would also include a box of fine chocolates? Rational actions when dealing with thugs is not the answer, especially when one has large amounts of money on them and no way to protect it in their back room. Once the police arrive they will see that there was an illegal detention as the Las Vegas police have seen this many times before and security knows it.
Only in the land of OZ would your idea be of any value.
his card thing was just a joke, but you getting busted for disorderly conduct, or resisting, or disturbing the peace if you make a scene goes way up if you start yelling.
i was in the same situation and played it very cool and calm and low keyed, explained my rights, and in the end they ended up apologizing to me.
I think cellini had a novel idea about the cards, could be useful.
There is never any reason to follow security to a private room and you should never do so. Make them place you under arrest and they can deal with the consequences.
I don�t believe that anyone has the right to club or mace another person that does not pose a physical threat to others. Not even trained police have this right. Don�t you agree?
We all agree. But this does happen.
A comment about police: people assume police exist to keep law & order. In practice, police are there to maintain the institutions of the state. You should not be surprised if police support casino security or casino interests. You may be disappointed, but do not be surprised.
2) What if one of there thugs physically violates you (your civil rights). Is it then legal to defend yourself and throw a strong uppercut to the jaw and run out? Keep in mind my friends, there was no cheating in this scenario that started the confrontation. Just good old fashioned brain power playing abilities.
You have a legal right to self-defense. In practice though you will end up being overpowered. Then the tape shows something more ambiguous than obvious illegal detention. There is little to gain from that manoevure.
to reality of the situation. Stating one is disorderly or resisting, etc. happens AFTER they try to drag you into a back room. When being taken AGAINST YOUR WILL by those who are ALREADY BREAKING THE LAW with the intial act you must not only protect yourself but many thousands of dollars in your pocket as well. My idea would provide notice to all and a call to the police. Your idea is lame and naive as it forfeits your chance for assistance while assuming good faith behavior by those already breaking the law. How naive. There is much at risk and you must act. Your idea is only good for those living in the land of OZ.
Stealth:
I think you misunderstood me. I wasn�t condoning such actions on behalf of the casino; I was warning people that if you make a fuss they might go mental. If they touch you and you�re just trying to leave, you have a case and only a fool wouldn�t peruse the issue to the fullest extent of the law. If they suspect you have cheated or you have committed a crime against another player, they have the right to cuff and hold you for the proper authorities.
Everybody remember this if it�s the last thing you hear: Nobody has the right to hit you even if they suspect you have committed a crime. In that case they can use equal force to subdue you if you resist. If you have not committed a crime you have nothing to worry about. If you have, expect to be cuffed and escorted to a holding room to await transfer to a city or state detention center.
Now, if you start yelling and screaming the adrenaline starts pumping on both sides and the security people feel they�ve lost control and will [possibly] do stupid things that they think they have a RIGHT to do but, when all is said and done, it will still cost you a quarter to have a friend bail you out.
It�s an unwritten rule in the security business that if you want to punch or beat someone in public you�re supposed to yell out �Stop Resisting� while you�re hitting them. This works well in court because any witness will say (from memory) �yes, he was clearly resisting� based solely on the memory of what they heard.
Try knocking someone down and sitting on top of them (not recommended). It doesn�t matter if you�re related or how big either one of you is, there is going to be some fussing and squirming. Unless you are part of this duo its anyone�s guess as to who�s doing what to whom so people are more likely to believe the person that is pleading for the other person to stop (even though they�re the person committing the assault and battery). It helps if you�re wearing a uniform with a badge too. The average person sees this as a �beacon in the night� or a friend waiting to help them so it must be the other persons fault.
In my past, I�ve seen security people do some really stupid things that cost people time, money, and pain none of which was pre-planned. Everyone just lost their cool. My only point was: Don�t give them a reason and don�t appear out of control; it can and will be held against you later.
Sorry for the misunderstanding.
-DVC
I was only trying to help.
I think all of you have made some good points and suggestions. There are so many factors that can vary one's combating actions though. What the casino's worry about most is their money. They don't like putting themselves a risk of paying for legal problems. Hey, we're into making $, aren't we? We're gamblers as long as we can put the odds somewhat in our favor, aren't we? So I think we all might want to consider actions that can "suck them in" so to speak, to the possibility of losing a lot of money in legal cases. If it happens to me, I'll play to the cameras with whatever I do. I can only hope they do something to me that compromises my civil rights. I'm seeing a real potential for $$$$$$$$ signs here.
Here�s what I posted about 10 days ago:
In Response To: VIDEO: Casino Abuse of Skilled Players (Al Rogers)
I have assumed that sooner or later something like this could happen to me. This issue was raised at cc.com recently. I've had a lot of time to think about it and have concluded the following:
They don't have to take a person to the back room for detainment if they are not a physical threat to others. They are not the police. If they try to "back room" me, AIN'T HAPPENING! As long as I never cheated them, they have nothing on me that warrants a reason to be taken out of public view, and maybe not even for any reason. I'll let them go only as far as to talk to me and send me packin'. But if somebody violates my civil rights and handles me aggressively with force, they may start losing teeth. Yah I know, they'll beat the crapolla out of me and I may go to jail. But I will own them in the end. Talk about "rolling the dice". It may not be a bad gamble. They have lots of $ to go after. They will have to also produce the surveillance tapes and pics. The courts know that they will have plenty of tapes, so there's no sandbagging the issue. One big win in the courts can be a hell of a lot more profitable than the $ we will ever make playing cards.
Anybody out there see it the same way? I'm sure there is plenty who will see it otherwise. Like to get some opinion from the legal guru's.
Discussion encouraged.
Stealth Bomber
P.S. After a big win in the courts, then we can go play cards again ......... with some big-time bank roll $. ;-)
If one were to react to being forcibly removed to the back room by casino security guards in the fashion you recommend, the most likely results would be a good beating by the guards and a claim by the casino that you were disruptive and combative and that the guards were within their rights to subdue you. What would be likely to appear on the video is you taking a punch at the guards and the ensuing struggle. You would not win that fight, either on the casino floor, or in the courtroom. There will probably be no sound on the video at that point, and your reaction will be all that can be seen. It will not help your case.
If it happens, you will be surrounded by guards, and one of them will handcuff you before you will have much of a chance to react. If, by chance, you get an opportunity to start swinging, you will make your situation worse, not better.
All judges, district attorneys and most gaming commission employees understand that if they cooperate with the mega casinos there is a good chance they will be rewarded down the road.
Heck, even if you got a jury trial, some of the individual on the jury will probably be willing to sell out to the casinos.
Chappy - you wrote: "Rational actions when dealing with thugs is not the answer, especially when one has large amounts of money on them and no way to protect it in their back room. Once the police arrive they will see that there was an illegal detention as the Las Vegas police have seen this many times before and security knows it."
It's not a police decision. It's the decision of gaming control. DV is spot on here are for good reason. In general, acting irrationally will only inflame a situation whether you're working with "thugs" or debating your spouse. In addition, DV is far from naive. If you only knew.
toddler
So my friends, what should we do or not do in order to stay in either the public view or to get shown the door. I don't like the thought of ending up in a back room with 10K + a pocket full of black chips.
Getting them to do something blatently against our civil rights on video, may still have its potential though.
Stealth Bomber
I never said anything about "taking a swing " at anyone. Who is that writer speaking of? All the others say not to make a fuss. WHAT then shall be done when being taken against your will illegally to a back room with pockets full of money? The detractors and their fans offer nothing of any substance in response.
There is nothing better than asking hundereds of people to call the police. It is a sure thing one of them will s none will have seen me fighting only being dragged away against my will. As for who makes any decsion. Irrelevant. There is nothing to make a decision on as I have done nothing wrong. As for the other comment of that writer that a video would show me swinging at security, what drugs is that poster on (as I never said that)?
I have noticed in then past a great denial of the obvious in many cases. We need real solutions not delusions, illusions of what others supposedly wrote, and support from their equally lost fans. The collective ego is too big and important to be on the "right" side. They all get together and agree. All offerring no credible solution or alternative of what to do at the moment of being backroomed. Unfortunatley they are clueless and wrong. As a side bet, I would bet it all that these are some Gore supporters (maybe even some Howard Dean!). Totally clueless.
Offer a better alternative when being acosted and possibly robbed or set up than asking for police help. You have only offerred noise.
If you are backroomed, it will all be on video, and the casinos are legally bound to keep the video and produce it if subpeonaed. As long as you behave in a calm and collected manner, you will have a far better case if you decide to file a lawsuit for being illegally detained or worse. If they took your money, the cameras will see that as well. I would suggest that you ask someone to call the police at once. If there is no one there to do that for you, demand that the police be called and continue to make that demand. That is not based on an assumption that the police will take your side in the dispute, it is just that the casino will be less likely to continue its illegal behavior in the presence of the cops. Thinking that you can physically resist and successfully overcome casino security is a pipedream and it can only make it harder for any subsequent lawsuit or criminal charge by you to win success in court.
Your above inaccurate claims that I suggested physical resisitance and that I would be shown on film throwing punches are a delusion made up in your mind. As stated earlier I never said any of that. You know it yet you post nonsense.
We have case after case where casino personel lie and get away with it. Only occasionally do we get a break where the truth comes in such as the recent Manadaly Bay case. In that case three secruity guards claimed to be attacked by some 130 pound guy. WHERE WAS YOUR FILM THEN? HMMM? Guess what? There was NO TAPE as they claimed it was "lost".
You make things up that others say. Then you follow that up by claiming that we are better depending on the honesty of security guards rather than asking someone to call the police (who do you call when being kidnapped?).
In short, with this type of demonstrated delusion and incoherance, I hope you're not driving bootlegger. Temper down on the ego, it is obvious you are wrong. Who knows, maybe YOU are a security guard! That may explain everything!
