Any Advice on 16 vs. 10??

I have run several simulations (2billion trials on 6-7-8 Software) and the 16 vs. 10 index comes up 0 some times and 1 some times. I use Hi-Lo count. I know this is a valuable index so I want to get it right. Also, it seems that because of this variation between sims, the difference in EV near 0 is very small.

From this I have decided that no matter what I do near 0 is okay, but the value really comes in at high or low counts. I have decided to hit on any negative running count and stand on any 0 or positive running count.

I am interested to hear any advice on this mundane minutiae. It bothers me much more than it should.

surrender :-)

perhaps the most under-rated play in the game.

But they don't allow surrender where I play.

You made a very important comment above:

From this I have decided that no matter what I do near 0 is okay, but the value really comes in at high or low counts. I have decided to hit on any negative running count and stand on any 0 or positive running count.

I agree completely with this. You have stated it very well.
You don�t know how often I see posts saying �Book X says index is 3, but Y says it is 4�. what should I do�. The short answer is: It doesn�t really matter.

The superlative answer is if surrender isn't offered, DON'T PLAY!!! I never do, but that's just me and I am probably biased in numerous other ways.

I stand on all of them. Nearly every pit-critter who has wielded a pen for more than a few months knows that (at least novice) Card Counters vary their play on this common situation. Ploppies, for the most part, play CONSISTENTLY, whether hitting or standing.
Because the "correct" [e v maximizing] play at positive counts is to STAND, and the actual loss of equity by standing at negative counts (with 1 unit wagers) is statistically minimal; the former simply swamps the latter. My play is not e v maximizing, but it is LONGEVITY maximizing at (almost) NO cost.

I believe that specific side counts of 5s and 6s show that in SINGLE DECK the ratio of 5s vs. 6s remaining are often a better determinant of what to do than the count. For example, when there are more 5s remaining than 6s you should hit 16 v 10. When there are more 6s than 5s you should stand. This will really confuse the pit if they're watching.

Your suggestion is 100% acurate, however what the pit will see is NOT so much confusion or hunches on the player's part - but possible smart play, as they will simply note differing play on 16 vs. 10, a tip-off to smart card-playing strategy.

I think that is good advice. Since you would stand with a big bet out, stand everywhere. I follow the same advice on 20, I never split two 10's even though a high count makes it profitable. It also raises a flag.

I think I mentioned somewhere along the way (here or in another forum) that my only "banning" happened in Vegas where a dealer and pit boss were pretty snotty to everyone at the table, and always had some snide remark to make on perfect basic strategy play, such as hitting a 12 vs a dealer 3. Since I was pretty well fed up there and didn't intend to go back, I just played "wide open" for a while. Huge bet spreads, splitting 10's on high counts, etc. Didn't take long for the "you are too good for us" at which point I interrupted him and said "you have no idea how good I really am compared to your jerk dealer and pit boss here..." I picked up my chips and walked out. Got my wife to go back and cash them in later. Casino starts with a "B" and it is not next to Caesar's... :)

The moral is you want to protect your "big bets" with best play (within reason, no splitting 10's unless you have a really good drunk and disorderly act) while giving up a bit of advantage with the small bets to avoid detection and counter-measures...

Many people work out their betting schedule prior to playing. It makes sense to work out strategy as well. Of course hitting 16 vs 10 vs standing here and there is also a good idea as that is how a real "gambler" might play the hands. I handle this a bit differently, since in 1d/2d games the count can swing wildly, and I hesitate to spread my bet as wildly, so I often do the double-up or whatever instead, and there I can be a bit more unpredictable in hitting/standing on certain stiff hands. IE right on the borderline of whether to hit or stand, I might hit with a smaller bet and stand with a bigger bet, and since my bigger spread didn't exactly track the count it attracts less attention.

But this affects the bottom line, of course. Although if you are banned, there will be no "bottom line" there. :)

assumption. Simply differing on hit/stand decisions on 16 V 10 is not the tip off to the pit. The tip off is its correlation to above and below zero counts. It is BEYOND lunacy to suggest that the typical bird brain, paranoid, pit boss can discern from a few instances of 16 v 10 decisions among thousands of players that you are using a 6/5 ratio strategy when a) not one in 10,000 players uses it and b)virtually no pitboss knows of it, looks for it, or can use it. You set the new record for paranoia.

In My Opinion - you are dead wrong. Re: pit critters, floor persons, surveillance, etc. "Never underestimate the enemy." I estimate that in the last 21 yrs. - as an advantage player - I have played approx. 18-20,000 hrs. (1,000,000+ hands) - in various venues in the U.S.A., Canada, the Carribean, and Central America. I tend to think that my experience counts for something.

Then again, maybe I have nothing to offer but egotistical rantings.

The 6/5 ratio is of course very important for 16v10. The spread gets you attention. But there are only two decisions known by many pit critters. 16v10 and insurance on high counts. I usually just stand on 16v10 if I am doing a straight count game.

I have heard pit critters talk about changing the decision of 16v10 as being a mark of a counter a few times.

Math Boy

In my opinion, the ace side count makes the difference. When there is an over supply of aces left in the deck I would hit.

I too have played many years. However, you missed the point. Reread what I said in above post.

But first...surrender, almost always, when available.

However, assuming you can't (surrender that is) try this.

Flip a coin. That's it. Seriously. Now, before everyone goes out and starts flipping coins, there are some caveats here.

If you're a red chip player, do what the count advises you to do. Period.

For green chip players, you have to make the call (regarding your adoption of this form of "cover" act) based on whether you're being rated or not, and of course, your bet spreads.

And blackchippers (who hopefully don't need any advice) may want to incorporate this into their act in (almost) all situations where surrender is not available, from the moment they sit down at the table. You may even want the critters to make the call for you, e.g., tell them, you pick, as I never get this one right, heads I hit, tails I stand, and flip the damn coin. Do whatever you said you'd do. Do it a few times on different shifts (both pit and surveillance), and you'll buy yourself some time at almost no expense. Then later, when the money hits the felt, they'll just attribute it to not going through the motions of a coin flip.

Now, before everyone goes out and starts flipping all these coins....

Go, and start flipping all these coins!

cheers
bfb

I understand FLASH's idea of never switching play and it's probably the right thing to do in the US where the pit staff knows a lot more about the game than those of the old continent.
In Europe it is different and consistancy is generally considered a sign of a good player as ploppies vary their play in view of the last few cards dealt. Most dealers don't even know basic strategy. Pit bosses usually do but that's it. They will consider any variation as a mistake. So,precise play is actually good cover!
What Chappy does seems to be good cover too but is it really worthwhile to keep a sidecount of fives and sixes just for this one play?

Francis Salmon