An Easy To Find Game

Ok friends here goes ;

8 Decks.
Double After Split
Unlimited Splits
6/8 penetration at the worst.
$10-$1000 betting range.
Max 3 bets per player.
Dealer Stay on soft 17.
Surrender allowed anytime.

What are odds of winning?
Any better method of playing?
What would your betting range have to be?
odd with + 1 , +2 etcc true count?

Sorry if i didnt explain perfectly Im not exactly an expert, I'm not even 21.

Are you able to surrender before the dealer checks for BJ?

Can you surrender after hitting / doubling / splitting?

This is a game in a casino near my house on the east coast. I believe you can surrender on your 3rd card maybe even higher, I dont surrender often or at all so I don't recall. I can find out if this makes a big difference.

Are you sure that this is BJ and not Spanish 21, Superfun 21, or some other game? Also, are there any other negative rules such as reduced BJ payout, etc.

Sounds like Spanish 21. I'm familiar with nearly every east coast game is this is rather unlikely. Even with the disgusting pen on the 8 deck shoe such a rule would probably move such a game into the realm of desirability. If it is Spanish 21, my advice is to quit playing and stay away.

I do apologize about the surrender, surrender is on your 3rd card I don't believe you can at "any point" sorry I am a newb. But foxwoods and mohegan (1 hour from me) offer these games at every table wasn't sure what you experts and experienced players thought about this, as this is my only way to play for another year at least AC is about 6 hours and Vegas 6 hour plane ride. This is blackjack not Spanish 21.

Thanks,
Ed

This is the first that I have heard about this rule. There is a similar rule that is standard for Spanish 21, which is why there is so much confusion. Obviously, Spanish 21 is played with a different deck and bears very little resemblance to BJ.

I am still a bit confused about this rule. Are you saying that you cannot surrender on your first two cards, but can surrender after you take one hit? If this is the case, then I would recommend looking up the expectation of various 3 card totals versus dealer up cards and choosing this surrender option whenever your EV is less than .50. Your advantage gained from this rule would be the frequency of these situations multiplied by the EV difference.

If you are talking about surrendering on your first two cards, that is a completely different situation.

I do apologize.

you can surrender on your first two cards or anytime after that, so if you have 15 you can surrender if you have 10 and hit to a 15 you can surrender and I believe if you have your 4th card say for a total of 16 (4,4,3,5) you can surrender.

Besides my 100% accuracy with their surrender policy everything is else is true and Foxwoods and Mohegan have these rules at every one of their blackjack games.

Is this better/worse than a 4/6 deck or DD?

Heat seems very little when you red chip $10 to $100 or $10 to $50 at two hands but again I don't have much experience yet.

Can you surrender before the dealer checks for BJ? If so, this is called Early Surrender and is a more powerful rule than Late Surrender which only allows you to surrender after the dealer has verified that they do not have BJ. I don't have the exact advantage off hand, but I believe that early surrender and the multi-card surrender options would make this at least a break-even game. I will let others chime in with more specifics, or you could check the archives at BJMath.com. Note the surrender is even more powerful for the counter, since you will frequently be up against dealer face cards when you have max bets out.

Again, I am a bit surprised that major casinos are offering this weird and beneficial rule at regular BJ tables.

Hello Coug Fan,

I am not sure If you can surrender before the dealer gets the green/red light for Blackjack, I will check next time I go, I would guess no but it's 50/50 I have never seen it done but also haven't seen it denied.

The 8 decks and moderate penetration is what kills you.

These rules will be the only thing I can play and start with also being a Tribal Casino they can be very strict and start making their own rules so I have been told, you are actually not in the USA when you are on their lands, so an Attorney told me.

I know AC uses 6 decks not sure penetration and other rules.

The only casinos I know that offer this again are the two in Conneticut and I hear Mohegan Sun can be very bad with heat and 86ing

Not blackjack!

I checked the Mohegan Sun Web site and it clarifies that they have late surrender on their BJ tables. They offer double down rescue (a form of 3 card surrender) on Spanish 21, which is standard for that game. Here are the answers to your original question for the following game:

8 decks
6/8 penetration
S17, DAS, LSR, DA2
$10 min

House edge = 0.39% with perfect basic strategy (see links on the left side of this page for a link to a basic startegy generator for this game)

Here are some count strategies, assuming Hi-Lo, I18, with NO counting or playing errors. Increasing your BR by 150% will drop the ROR to a more managable 5%.

Play-all 1-12 spread: EV= 2 units per 100 hands, BR required for 13.5% ROR = 1,025 units ($10,250 for a $10 unit).
TC<1 = 1 unit
TC+1 = 4 units
TC+2 = 9 units
TC+3 = 12 units

Play-all 1-20 spread: EV= 3.2 units per 100 hands, BR required for 13.5% ROR = 1,257 units.
TC<1 = 1 unit
TC+1 = 5 units
TC+2 = 11 units
TC+3 = 17 units
TC+4 = 20 units

Back-count:
Entry point = TC+1
TC+1 = 1 unit
TC+3 = 2 units
TC+4 = 3 units
TC+5 = 4 units

EV= 0.63 units per 100 hands, BR required for 13.5% ROR = 165 units ($10,000 BR = $60 unit).

I will analayze all the wonderful information you have given me very smart idea going to mohegan/foxwoods website. Thank you again you have been very helpful Coug Fan.

I can't tell exactly from the numbers as again I am a newb but would you recommend this game?

Thanks,
Ed

Zig-

I think you are referring to the LATE SURRENDER rule offered of Foxwoods and Mohegan. This rule doesn't allow you to surrender on anything after your first 2 cards. You may have had a rookie dealer who allowed this but this is a rule option that would greatly improve the value of late surrender (im guessing it would add another .30 to .50% to basic strategy).

As someone already said, late surrender is an excellent rule and makes the games in Connecticut (disregarding pen) superior to those offered in Atlantic City (by about .15% for the non AP). Early surrender (not offered in Connecticut) allows you to surrender before the dealer peaks his ace and people travel the world for that option.

I wouldn't play a shoe that has 2 decks cut off unless the dealer was flashing his hole card. The only countermeasure would be a VERY disciplined backcount but you would probably play a total of 25 hands in an 8 hour session that way. Try to find a dealer offering the best cut (maybe 7/8) and walk on the real bad counts. Now spread your bets 12 to 1 (ever better go 20 to 1!) and you've got yourself a tiny edge that should hold up provided you have the bankroll to take an occassional 1000 unit spill.

Where do they have dd with good rules and pen?