Action on behalf of proficient players (long)

Forgive the cross post -- some read only the private GC pages, others only the free pages, and some read both. I apologize in advance for my efforts to reach a large audience with this essay.

Dear Blackjack Community,

The issue of casinos barring and harassing high level proficient players, and our possible counter-actions, is one that recurs from time to time on these boards. The range of proactive ideas that have been brought forth, and the counter arguments, are well known. Nevertheless, I want to summarize several of the counter-arguments before I continue.

To begin with, some argue that any action taken against casinos, to further the rights of proficient players, simply violates the basic right of casinos, as private businesses, to do what they wish to counters. The argument is that, as users of a service provided by a business, the business has the right to refuse service to anyone, and thus we have no implicit rights.

Another common argument is that any action taken against casinos that is successful will only lead to the further deterioration of the game, in the manner that �Uston destroyed New Jersey.�

Many who might otherwise support such action argue that anyone involved in such an action is automatically well known to the casinos, and thus his days of high-level play are over.

There is the argument that any action, whether in Nevada court, or in the Nevada legislative branch, will automatically fail, as these organizations are �owned by the casinos.�

And finally there is the argument that the games will continue to get worse, because the casinos don�t owe the public beatable games to begin with. Witness the onslaught of SF-21, 6-5 Single Deck, CSM�s and the like. Any games that happen to be beatable at the present moment must be preserved.

In spite of all of these intelligent, and well-formulated arguments, some of which are quite persuasive, I continue to believe that such an action (legal or legislative) is possible, can be successful, and may improve the quality of the game.

The game is already effectively dead for high-level players, and the rest of us green chippers make do with the crumbs we are tossed. A professional wage is simply impossible for all but an elite few as the game stands at present. The damage proficient players could do to the casino bottom line, if unleashed in mass, is insignificant. There is simply no precedent for a group of skilled participants in an activity to be barred in favor of the unskilled. In no other business is an entire class of law-abiding citizens forbidden from participating in a public activity offered by the business.

Many claim that it was Uston who was responsible for destroying blackjack in New Jersey. In fact, instead of casinos having the ability to take direct action against proficient players, their actions were restricted. The games may be poor, but they are still profitable. The quality of the games does not owe to Uston. There is no competition between the three corporations that own the casinos in New Jersey. They have steadily raised the table minimums, while reducing comps, effectively increasing the bottom line to the point where the AC casinos now out-gross the major LV Strip casinos. But the main reason is lack of competition. The fact that there are no other games that can compete with NJ means that these casinos can get away with what they are doing. A similar situation is occurring in Detroit, where that city�s casinos now have a higher per/player take than any other casinos in the country.

Casino harassment of proficient players continues. Some casinos are taking actions against proficient players that are more than simple barrings, the behavior of these casinos is illegal. I have posted two such accounts on my website, www.cardcounter.com. With this background, I shall now discuss the possible avenues of direct action.

Legislative action

All businesses are regulated. The first line of regulation is the "Business license" which sets forth terms that a business must abide by in order to keep doing its thing. This license can be revoked. Another line of regulation is the tax law, which is enforced by IRS. Yet another, State laws regarding business, which are upheld by the courts and law enforcement agencies.

Gambling is a major public issue, and it takes legislative action for such businesses to be sanctioned. The state is not an abstract entity. The state is "the people of the state." The State permits and regulates gambling, but the public's interest is rarely addressed. The casinos have their lobbyists, political connections and attorneys (more than we can possibly know) - all a business expense to protect their interests. The public has little to no one to fight for them (save the anti-gambling lobby, which is certainly not a position we would back).

Casino Corporations cannot just go into any state and open their business. The argument that states that a company/corporation can do what they want (harass or bar law abiding customers), is like saying the meat industry can sell tainted meat, the auto industry defective cars, the drug industry - anything they wish to put on the market, Wall Street firms without the SEC, and so on.

Government regulation is a necessity to the fair operation of businesses and corporations in society. The Gaming industry has skated for a good while without public input or public protection. It is absurd that a person can be trespassed at a casino or hotel because he has gray matter.

We can go to the Legislature and Gaming Commission. We can ask that they set rules or create laws that forbid casino management from discriminating against law-abiding players.

It will be state law, federal law and State Commission Rules & Regulations that will ultimately affect proficient players and the general gambling public. Thus the correct approach is political attack. We should forget thoughts of pickets, law suits, or boycotts. It is very hard to get people to take direct action of this sort. Lobbying only takes a few people.

The casino corporations know about this vulnerability and that is why they hire their people to lobby at all levels of government. They appreciate "Governmental Control" of gaming, as long as they can turn the screws on the key people in the government. But the public has major interests in gambling as well. The issue of gambling stirs the blood of political constituencies and thus the media. It is not a silent issue, it is a major issue -- and we can use the same political machinery used by the mega-gambling corporations for our cause just as well.

Legal action

The problem we face is that we have no "Bill of Rights." Our civil rights are being violated -- we are being discriminated against on a daily basis in casinos. Discrimination occurs when a class of law-abiding people are systematically excluded from a public activity. We are made to feel like crooks and cheats for having skill. As a result we have to take measures that cut into EV and decrease the pure pleasure we derive from playing the game. In addition there is the humiliation of being approached by armed guards and being questioned and interrogated in public view.

In Uston's day many issues of civil liberties had not yet been won in court. Today it is much different, and a new case may find much more support. The issue for proficient players is if such an action would in effect ruin the game. That is, do we have to take what we can get -- be thankful for the morsels of quality BJ we are tossed? Let me argue that such a case would not affect quality.

The experts would testify to the bottom line monetary damage the counters could do. It would become clear that the response of the casinos in terms of the measures they are taking against counters is out of proportion to this damage. The impeccable credentials of the team assembled would bring credibility to this group, the way other sports are made credible by the excellence of their professionals.
The case would get a lot of publicity. The proficient players would get public sympathy as fighting the "evil money mongering casinos." This public awareness would also bring attention to the poor quality of the games, and the weakness of the new variants, as experts testified. This general education of the public would bring a backlash against the casinos, effectively forcing them to reinstate the quality games they had even 5 years ago.

The judge would rule that the casinos must allow everyone to play the games as they currently exist, and the public would expect the good games to return. In addition, education about the game would force the casinos to offer better (not worse) games, as the public started demanding decent conditions.

Other forms of action

There are a few other lines of attack, including media campaigns, picketing, direct conversations, and lobbying. Although such actions are possible, they do not go directly to the source of change, and as such are slower and more likely to fail in and of themselves. However, they can certainly be used as components of a larger campaign.

Conclusion

In conclusion, this essay is not idle dreaming. There is an active group of highly proficient blackjack players that are seriously bent on taking action. This group is expanding, and contains top players, scholars, businessmen, law enforcement agents, lawyers, and others. However, as this group understands the possible repercussions on the blackjack community, and the delicacy, timing, financial, and legal support such an action requires, they are not in a hurry. They wish to do this the right way. They want to restore player�s rights while maintaining or improving the quality of the game, and getting the monkey of �cover� off of everyone�s back.

--The Mayor

Very nice job Mayor. I am convinced the only way to achieve your objectives is to generate outrage by the public at large. If casinos get hit with a significant decline in revenue because of their games and attitude, things will change for the better in a hurry. I repeat--the only way casinos will improve games and their tolerance for good players is for them to get hit first in the wallet--big time. Figure out a way to keep the public from going to places like Vegas in protest and you win---otherwise it's a losing fight.

*YAWN*. Come on, just give it up. You're not going to be the next Ken Uston. Nobody is. The casinos do effectively own the government in Nevada and that's that. Just take your barrings like an adult and move on. In your entire post you made but one good point:

A professional wage is simply impossible for all but an elite few as the game stands at present

And we aim to keep it that way.

I sincerely hope your action fails before ever taking off the ground. If the lawsuit does succeed, it will totally piss off the gaming industry and they will react by completely eliminating games where an edge is achievable. Feel like playing craps, roulette and slot machines for the next 10 years?? Go ahead an sue them.

Card counters are parasites and casinos are their host animal. You dont attack your host. You dont fight a "war" against your host, because its equivalent of shitting into the plate you eat from. You strive to live in harmony with your host. The only way a host will put up with a parasite is when the cost of getting rid of you is greater than the cost of having you around. Thats why red and green chip counters still have a reasonable life expectancy in a casino.

To sum it up : DONT BITE THE HAND THAT IS FEEDING YOU

Dear Mayor, I enjoy your postings and think that they are well written and sometimes eloquent and pursuasive. I conclude that you are educated and intelligent, however I disagree with you. There are
some advantage players that do not play for the money. I could make far more money just spending a little more time on the job than I will ever make card counting/shuffle tracking. The Cat and Mouse game is part of the allure for me, sometimes I have to get up from the table and go to the mens room to hide my joy at less skilled people telling me what I am doing wrong. I love the dealer and other players rolling his eyes at me when I surrender twice in a row. I am sneaking chips into my pocket to keep my table winnings looking puny and frequently switching table. If the law was changed so that the casino had to let me play I would probably quit. My impression is that you want to admit that you are a card counter, and you want to be admired and respected as being intelligent and creative, you seem to have forgotten one thing. Card counting is not difficult it is merely time intensive. I could open a school for the mildly retarded and graduate card counters. Every aspect of advantage play is difficult when you are learning it but semi-automatic when you have experience in it. You can put every possible play at every possible count on a flash card. Professional players frequently complain how boring it is, because it requires no thinking once all the variables are completely mastered. The actual difficult part is hiding it. So I think that you do not speak for the majority of advantage players who find great joy in being sneaky , it seems to be the parameter that you haven't adressed in your well reasoned, eloquent, empassioned posts. The status quo may be something that most advantage players want.You may just have to find some other avenue to impress the world with you vast intelligence. Solve world hunger, complete the unified field theory, win a nobel prize for something, the only people impressed by advantage players are the unknowing masses. Every card counter knows that with sufficient time and energy you could teach card counting to a chimp. It is strictly a memorization/recall process which is one of the lowest levels of intelligence. A superior mind like yourself can assuredly find something better as a demonstartion of said intelligence and leave the status quo which the fast majority of advantage players want alone.

It's an interesting point. While Atlantic City casinos cannot legally take the same countermeasures that Nevada casinos can, the market is also not nearly as free as it is in Nevada. You can't conclusively say which of the two factors is responsible for the terrible blackjack. But though it's not clear that the games are bad because backoffs are prohibited, that's not the same as arguing that to outlaw backoffs would IMPROVE the game. I think that's a big leap in logic.

Besides, both problems with Atlantic City are different symptoms of the same illness: Regulation. The lack of competition is due to the tremendous governmental obstacles that a competitor would have to surmount. Imagine how many millions you'd have to spend, how many years you'd have to wait, how many New Jersey palms you'd have to grease if you wanted to open up an Atlantic City joint. The government also makes it harder to change game conditions. If an AC casino wanted to deal hand-held double deck games they'd have to petition the government to change the rules, and the other casinos would essentially have veto power. And guess who's responsible for the prohibition of backoffs and barrings? Why, the government, of course.

It's clear that the overall determining factor which separates the good games from the bad games is the amount of governmental regulation. Obviously there has to be some amount of oversight - I'm not saying the government shouldn't ensure that the games are fair - but, just as in any other industry, the more the government puts up barriers to the free market, the more both buyers and sellers suffer. That government is best which governs least.

It is for this reason that I oppose your suggestion. I think you underestimate the potential harm that could be caused by the restrictions you would impose. If you really want to improve blackjack conditions through concerted lobbying efforts, instead let us lobby the government at the state and federal level to remove the regulation that exists. We should make it as easy as possible to start and operate a casino. As with anything else, the more suppliers there are, the more competetion there is, and the better off the consumers are. There are more bad blackjack games in Las Vegas than there are in Atlantic City, but because of the large pool of casinos there's always a decent game to be found elsewhere in the city. Surely many more casinos would sprout up in Atlantic City if only given the chance. There's no reason why we can't spawn a dozen Las Vegases. And we should legalize internet betting. To force the brick and mortar casinos to make their game more attractive, what could be better than to force them to compete with convenient, low-limit, no-airfare-required internet gambling? I think it could usher in an era of attractive games unseen in forty years.

Commissions must become responsible to the public not the Casinos.

From Theef 26/Jun/ 02:

It's clear that the overall determining factor which separates the good games from the bad games is the amount of governmental regulation.

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Myself

If the customers would keep coming back, the Casino's would rather simply take your money at the door and send you back home...To make as much money as possible, they have to entertain you and leave you wanting to come back for more...They walk a tightrope between having the largest vigorish possible, while at the same time achieving the above results.

Since so many people dismiss the mathematics of gambling and think that it is all just luck, the Casino's are capable of changing the rules in their favor without too many complaints, or more importantly, with little or no loss in overall profit...When the space and expense of table games becomes so high that simply installing Slot Machines makes more money, then either that happens or the table games are made more profitable by increasing the vigorish.

A Casino opens its doors to make money from the gullible, not to provide an income for card counters...Expecting some kind of government legislation to help the beleagured card counters is totally unrealistic...A government official who was asked to offer such help would look at those who were asking, as "Ploppies"; not in the game of blackjack, but rather, in the realities of everyday life.

There is a long battle ahead, and without our attention and effort, games will continue to detiorate. The Mayor has many good ideas, but there is way, way too much to be done at once. Each issue needs to be examined separately, this is not "all or nothing". We need to decide what is really worth fighting for and what to work for first.

The two most important things to me:
The quality of Blackjack games
Protection against abuse and harassment

I only advocate legal action against casinos in cases of legitimate crimes by them against customers. Casinos should be as accountable (or more) to their customers as any other business. Unlawful arrest, physical intimidation and threats should not be permitted. I believe the casino has the "right" to bar counters, but we have the legal right that it be done in a civil manner, without violence or illegal seizure of assets.

The best way to protect games is to educate the public not to play bad games. If the junk games are not getting the business, the casios will take them out. Boycott bad games. For example: Take out a wad of money and ask the management, "Where is the one deck Blackjack game?" If they don't have a real one, say "Thanks anyway, but I'll go to ------ Casino and play their game." Put your money back in your wallet and leave.

The Mayor is a little starry-eyed and idealistic. Not all of what he wants is practical or possible. What's wrong with that? There is work to be done, and he seems to have the energy and will to do it. Help him focus on the key issues and focus the efforts, so that we can maintain and restore the quality of the game.

Sentry

The path to improvement in the game of 21 lies with letting the general public know what a crappy game it has become. Hitting soft 17, not allowing re-split of aces, paying 6 to 5 on a blackjack, dealing less than 1/2 of a two deck game, allowing doubling only on 10 and 11,not allowing doubling on splits and the proliferation of six and eight deck shoes. Blackjack increased in popularity over the past 40 years because of the general belief that it was a beatable game.

When the public begins to believe it is no longer a beatable game they will spend their dollars elsewhere. If a way may be found to get out the message that the Coast properties offer a bad game less money will flow to their dropbox. Laying some bad public relations on Park Place Entertainment will go further toward improving the game than attempting to make Nevada politicians accountable to the voters rather than the casino owners.

I am sure Mr. Wong will once again disagree with me, however I believe this site and the game of blackjack would be improved if the site was expanded to interest the general public. This could be accomplished by becoming a colorful and factual casino ratings site. Let the public know who is offering the best games, not for counters but for the public. Let them know who is offering the highest overall return on slots. Which casino is absolutely the best place to play craps. What poker room is the friendliest, smoke-free and rakes the less.

Make a page so powerful that a gambler, not a counter, wouldn't dream of going to Las Vegas without checking out the best games.

Would love to talk with you Stanford at your convenience.

The best way to protect games is to educate the public not to play bad games. If the junk games are not getting the business, the casios will take them out. Boycott bad games. For example: Take out a wad of money and ask the management, "Where is the one deck Blackjack game?" If they don't have a real one, say "Thanks anyway, but I'll go to ------ Casino and play their game." Put your money back in your wallet and leave.

Now THAT makes much more sense. Whenever you pass by a ripoff game, spend a minute to make other players aware of the racket. When you see a blackjack 6:5 game, sit down for a few hands until someone gets a BJ then "correct" the dealer's payoff by pointing out how much should be paid off under 3:2. After the dealer patiently explains the ripoff rules, raise a fuss, pick up your money, announce to the table where the 3:2 game is found and head in that direction. Gamblers are always looking for excuses for their losses, and you have just given them what they are looking for - the reason why they have been loosing a ton of money (with their skills they'd lose it on any game, but dont tell them that). Soon enough they'll follow you to the better game.

That being said, I must admit it's a big challenge to explain to grandmas why slot machines is not a good game, but do what you can.

Do you think the states legalize gambling because the people want to gamble? Hell no! They did so because it's a source of revenue to fill their coffers without having to tell the voters they raised taxes. State gambling commissions exist merely to make sure the state gets maximum return from the casinos in its state, and to lend the appearance that these games are honest. Anything (including card counters and advantage players) that would threaten this cash cow is looked down upon by these governments because it would mean less revenue for them.

Fantastic post and excellent ideas. A site with a ranking system that shows where the best games can be found. Aimed at average gamblers NOT advantage players, explaining in simple, non-mathematical terms why a 3:2 blackjack is better than 6:5, why less decks are better than multiple decks, why penetration is good (you can come up with something like "The more cards remain behind the cut-card, the easier it is for a dishonest casino to hide their crooked cheating practices. Some dishonest casinos will remove good cards from the deck and place the cut-card to make it harder for honest skilled players to detect the cheating. Beware of games where a large number of cards are being cut off."). Easy to understand diagrams would really help.

Such a site has not only "public benefit" potential, but commercial potential also. Think of the advertising money you could get from the casinos that are on top of your ranking list!

There are already several such "lists" of good casinos, but unfortunately they are all aimed at the small counting community, not at the massive gambler community, and thats the crucial mistake that is being made.

Posted By: Dude21 on 26 June 02, 10:53 a.m. in response to: Posting by Mayor (Tulsa)

Such a site has not only "public benefit" potential, but commercial potential also. Think of the advertising money you could get from the casinos that are on top of your ranking list!

The problem with this statement is once you start accepting advertising dollars you lose your objectivity.

get ploppies to find better games.they have no desire to win,and are in it for the fun.there are 2types of bj players:ploppies and card counters.thats it!basic strategy players are also ploppies in my book since they cant win.ploppies play for fun and could care less if its s17 or h17.that said,the casinos do not want counters to play and the sooner you guys realize that the better.enough talk about taking them to court so we can play unmolested.if that happens,vegas will become a 8 deck city and i will have to retire from playing.leave it the way it is and let us stay a small click of winners who get free meals whenever we want.we are beating the casinos big time if you count comps.there is no reason why they should allow us to destroy them even more.

Casinos can be used to launder money. Al Quada launders money (there was even a real blackjack and blackmail scheme that did have such ties). The war on terrorism is a war without borders or timelimits...

There is no such thing as civil rights anymore but there is still the market power of capitalism. The games are not popular with ploppies unless they hear that we can and are doing what they don't, can't or won't.

Focus on bad mouthing bad games and puplicizing abusive backoffs and casino inappropriate use of FR software. But grow up and forget any civil right to count!

If it is mandated that advantage played must be allowed to play, the games MUST deteriorate.

With the tools at hand (BJRM, SBA, etc.), it is obvious that the advantage players could simply camp out at the best games spreading green, and, within a couple of years, all become millionaires!

Yes, we must go through a lot of BS to be allowed to play, but I would rather have the good games.

I think you're getting out of line posting this all over the internet while trying to find our salavation. (WE Dont need this to survive). The reason I use (WE) is because I speak of proficient card counters with a common sense of serenity (the few,the proud and the ugly).

You know me and also know that I've put down the casinos and the pits from time and time, but I have to STRONGLY disagree with what you are attempting to do, which is in my opinion...Trying to represent us as a unified people, but casting out spells that can easily backfire.

But..nevertheless, you are the Great Mayor and may seek fame and fortune by being the first pro counter to change Las Vagas to " 8 Decks Mandatory ".

Just think you'll be wrote about in books and known all over the world!!!!!!!!!

On the other hand, maybe it would be easier if you do as you did before,which is keep things (PERSONAL) and write a letter to the casino of your choice from the individualist card counter that you are, and ask for salvation.