This has been tested in the courts more than once. Seeing the hole card is not cheating.
This has been tested in the courts more than once. Seeing the hole card is not cheating.
Just because the courts may have ruled that it is not cheating does not mean that it isn't cheating. Cheating is defined as using information which according to the rules of the game you are not supposed to have. The player is not supposed to know what the hole card is. Card counters merely use information which is available and is legal (as per the rules of the game) to possess. Get caught peeking at a hole card and the casino will very likely treat you a lot worse than if you get caught merely counting... plus peeking leaves physical proof of what you're doing (the act of peeking at the card caught by the Eye) while there is no concrete way to prove (short of a brain scan) that you're card counting.
"The player is not supposed to know what the hole card is."
Agreed, but that certainly doesn't make it "cheating" to take advantage of a poorly-trained or sloppy dealer.
What about when the dealer accidentally turns the hole card over before the player has acted? The hand is always played out, with the player having full advantage of knowing the hole card.
In the casino's view, the player is not "supposed to know" what the count is, either, but as you correctly point out, it is "legal" to know, and play accordingly.
"Get caught peeking at a hole card and the casino will very likely treat you a lot worse than if you get caught merely counting ..."
This is true, though there is no legal or rational basis for it.
"It is obvious, without reference to 'laborious calculations', that getting roughly 100% return on investment in a few hours, as you can with most MG casinos, is mathematically superior in terms of ROI alone to counting."
Hello: you can double your money in a few hours with most MG casinos?
What a second: if one has ONE PENNY, yes a zinc Abe Linclon, and you double that thirty times, so say in 30 days if you play BJ for a few hours a day, you will have OVER 1 MILLION DOLLARS.....hmmmmm....if this was as good as you say it is, what the heck are you doing here? you are losing the opportunity to become the richest man in the world, and don't say you can't cause you don't have enough money, after all, all you need is a penny to get started.(ok maybe $5 given table limits)
I don't actually believe you are a moron and I didn't mean to personalize the issue. I was emphasizing for effect. Obviously card counters are generally more intelligent than the population at large.
>>"The player is not supposed to know what the hole card is."
>>Agreed, but that certainly doesn't make it "cheating" to take advantage of a poorly-trained or sloppy dealer.
Looking for a sloppy dealer shows that it is the intent of the player to use illegal information. The skill level of the dealer is not relevant to the fact that the player is using underhanded methods with the intent of obtaining illegal information.
>>What about when the dealer accidentally turns the hole card over before the player has acted? The hand is always played out, with the player having full advantage of knowing the hole card.
This is a situation where the player did not use subterfuge to obtain this information. And, this will not give information on the dealer's hole card (unless if playing a ENHC game) but merely the next card to be dealt, because when the players are making decisions the dealer already has the hole card in front of him/her.
>>In the casino's view, the player is not "supposed to know" what the count is, either, but as you correctly point out, it is "legal" to know, and play accordingly.
The "count" is merely memorizing the cards which have been played, which is information that is not illegal (by the rules of the game) to have. The casino can choose to use shuffle machines or shuffle after every hand if they wish to defeat players who count.
>>"Get caught peeking at a hole card and the casino will very likely treat you a lot worse than if you get caught merely counting ..."
>>This is true, though there is no legal or rational basis for it.
While I believe that peeking is "cheating" (according to the rules of the game), I would never begrudge someone for choosing to play in this manner. But that player should be aware that playing in that manner could make them subject to harsh countermeasures. While I don't approve of casinos abusing players, the players should be aware of what could happen when they try to hustle the casino, and that knowing you were treated "unfairly" is not much consolation after getting beaten or otherwise abused.
====
And to those who say that peeking is not cheating, would you also argue that a dealer who peeks at the next card and uses this information to deal seconds is not cheating also??? Or is "cheating" merely from the perspective of which side of the table you're sitting on???
"In the casino's view, the player is not "supposed to know" what the count is, either, but as you correctly point out, it is "legal" to know, and play accordingly."
Whether the player "knows the count" or not is not related to any mistake in procedure or some lapse of attention by the house personnel. Card counting is different from techniques such as hole carding because, in the former case, the house intentionally "displays" the count for all to see. (But it gets upset when someone actually sees it!)
This fact, hoever, does not make holecarding some kind of immoral action, as Don Trump implies. When the house has a weakness in its procedures, in how it has calculated the EV for a game (ie wrong) or the cost of a bonus (ie wrong) or anything that offers the perceptive player an extra advantage, taking advantage of it, nay, actively searching for that opportunity is not morally wrong. It's opportunism, yes, but not theft or cheating.
As to the courts and whether it's legal or not, there's a precedent that says it is.
Hello: you can double your money in a few hours with most MG casinos?
You can get 100% return on investment, you just can't get invest everything you have due to the low bonus max. Most MG's max out at a 100 dollars.
Nonetheless you can put down significant money and get 10 and 20 % deals, which still gives you pretty impressive bankroll growth.
I do fine strictly card counting... with the added advantage of not being accused of cheating and getting a casino security guard's foot up my ass. And yes peeking at the hole card IS CHEATING!
Why not tell that to the Greek who got his faced bounced off the carpet at the Frontier for merely counting? Or MIT member Noah Rosen who sat handcuffed in Caesars back room for five hours?
Your moronic response reeks of a typical BJ21 wannabe with very little to zero real world experience.
"To those who say that peeking is not cheating, would you also argue that a dealer who peeks at the next card and uses this information to deal seconds is not cheating also???
It is cheating. When the dealer peeks at the next card, he does that intentionally. That's cheating. (It's as if the player lifts the hole card and takes a peek at it when the dealer isn't looking. Just imagine that it can happen.)
When the player makes a hole card that's flashed by the dealer, the flashing is not intentional. (Note, and note very careffully, that if it can be shown that the dealer is flashing intentionally, the holecarder is in deep shit.)
Let me offer you an example of what holecarding is from the casino perspective : it's as if the player splits 55vA. The player is effectively giving more money to the house than he should. And the dealer isn't obliged by casino rules to inform the player. And where is the opportunism displayed by the poor casino, you ask, similar to the opportunism of shameless holecarders, those bastards that are on the look out to maximize their advantage ?
Well, when that dumb Splitter is comped to the gills, what do you think that is?..
ROI does not assume you can invest your whole bankroll. This is obvious. Nor can you make assumptions about what a player's bankroll might actually be-online gamblers invariably have less money than card counters.
Now, perhaps SOTSOG can explain how card counting measures up to virtually any other form of advantage play in terms of bankroll growth. After doing a complete 180 degree swivel on the whole "advanced techniques" issue when Grosjean's book came out I'm interested to see which he's turning now.
John May likes to make wild statements. He has a long history of doing so. Try to pin him down on some specifics, or talk actual cases, or "put his money where his mouth is", and you will see an amazing display of back-pedaling, tap-dancing, side-shuffling, "it depends on what your definition of 'is', is" double talk that would put the greatest con man to shame.
Try this: if you can get a $15,000 bonus for wagering $400,000 online then you can make a ton of money, much, much faster than the most sophisticated card counter (this is an actual offer). This is obvious to all but a complete idiot.
Which part of that is ambiguous, vague or constitutes tap-dancing?
Agree
Posted By: John May on 27 September 02, 4:05 a.m. in response to: Spectre over Vegas (313.81)
I've no problem with card counting, it is just getting tougher while other forms of advantage play are getting easier.
__________________________________________________________________
Amen, J.M.!
Chip
Believe me I have PLENTY of "real world" blackjack experience (including being followed to my room by the Biloxi PD for having beaten the President Casino). I will put our card counting skills up against yours any day. You're chances of getting roughed up when PEEKING is much greater than when CARD COUNTING, and peeking gives the casino physical PROOF to justify their rough treatment. When a counter gets roughed up it's almost always the result of having mouthed off at the wrong guy (gee how come it wouldn't surprise me if it's happened to you LOL). You sir are obviously a guy who doesn't like anyone and only hangs around these message boards to troll about how stupid everyone else is (with no substance and while never posting anything of value). You're just the kind of guy who I would enjoy hearing about getting his ass kicked by a casino goon.
>>It is cheating. When the dealer peeks at the next card, he does that intentionally. That's cheating. (It's as if the player lifts the hole card and takes a peek at it when the dealer isn't looking. Just imagine that it can happen.)
>>When the player makes a hole card that's flashed by the dealer, the flashing is not intentional.
But the act of PEEKING at that hole card IS intentional, on the part of the player. Someone said that hole-carders search for "weak" dealers, which is further pre-meditation on the players part to violate the rules of the game, as they most likely would NOT play at a table where the dealer doesn't flash his cards. But I guess the cheaters on this board have already shown that cheating at blackjack is OK, as long as it's not the casino doing the cheating. It's too bad that CHEATERS like LVHCM can't count cards good enough to win (like I can) and thus have to resort to scummy underhanded tactics to win money from casinos and can't do so by playing by the rules.
I never made a claim that peeking is "immoral", although I've recieved some rather insulting responses to my posts. All I was saying is that peekers are NOT PLAYING BY THE RULES OF THE GAME. The rules say that the player is not supposed to know the value of the dealer's hole card. (Even a moron like LVHCM should know that.) And when the player makes an effort to find out information that he is not (according to the rules) supposed to have that is defined as CHEATING. If one wants to CHEAT in a casino then fine... but they shouldn't come crying to me when they get stomped for it, because it's an occupational hazard.
and peeking gives the casino physical PROOF to justify their rough treatment.
What kind of "PROOF" is that genius? The camera spots you with your eyes open lol?
I will put our card counting skills up against yours any day.
This statement is so absurd it does not even deserve a response. Let's just say and many others would take that bet.
When a counter gets roughed up it's almost always the result of having mouthed off at the wrong guy (gee how come it wouldn't surprise me if it's happened to you LOL).
How would a wannabe such as yourself even begin to know if this true? The cases I cited (plus many others) had no such "mouthing off". I also don't suspect casino goons will be kicking my ass anytime soon lol.
It's too bad that CHEATERS like LVHCM can't count cards good enough to win (like I can) and thus have to resort to scummy underhanded tactics to win money from casinos and can't do so by playing by the rules.
You should not hold it against me that I choose to legally obtain advantages far greater than yours, holecarding being just one example. Unfortunately for you, facts are still facts. The courts (including the Supreme Court) have upheld the legality of this on more than one occasion. That you choose to ignore this is proof of you're own stupidity. Then again, you're probably one of those guys that buys into all that Uston bullshit...
NRS 465.070 Fraudulent acts. It is unlawful for any person:
1. To alter or misrepresent the outcome of a game or other event on which wagers have been made after the outcome is made sure but before it is revealed to the players.
2. To place, increase or decrease a bet or to determine the course of play after acquiring knowledge, not available to all players, of the outcome of the game or any event that affects the outcome of the game or which is the subject of the bet or to aid anyone in acquiring such knowledge for the purpose of placing, increasing or decreasing a bet or determining the course of play contingent upon that event or outcome.
3. To claim, collect or take, or attempt to claim, collect or take, money or anything of value in or from a gambling game, with intent to defraud, without having made a wager contingent thereon, or to claim, collect or take an amount greater than the amount won.
4. Knowingly to entice or induce another to go to any place where a gambling game is being conducted or operated in violation of the provisions of this chapter, with the intent that the other person play or participate in that gambling game.
5. To place or increase a bet after acquiring knowledge of the outcome of the game or other event which is the subject of the bet, including past-posting and pressing bets.
6. To reduce the amount wagered or cancel the bet after acquiring knowledge of the outcome of the game or other event which is the subject of the bet, including pinching bets.
7. To manipulate, with the intent to cheat, any component of a gaming device in a manner contrary to the designed and normal operational purpose for the component, including, but not limited to, varying the pull of the handle of a slot machine, with knowledge that the manipulation affects the outcome of the game or with knowledge of any event that affects the outcome of the game.
8. To offer, promise or give anything of value to anyone for the purpose of influencing the outcome of a race, sporting event, contest or game upon which a wager may be made, or to place, increase or decrease a wager after acquiring knowledge, not available to the general public, that anyone has been offered, promised or given anything of value for the purpose of influencing the outcome of the race, sporting event, contest or game upon which the wager is placed, increased or decreased.
9. To change or alter the normal outcome of any game played on an interactive gaming system or the way in which the outcome is reported to any participant in the game.
What part of this don't you understand WANNABE?? :
2. To place, increase or decrease a bet or to determine the course of play after acquiring knowledge, not available to all players, of the outcome of the game or any event that affects the outcome of the game or which is the subject of the bet or to aid anyone in acquiring such knowledge for the purpose of placing, increasing or decreasing a bet or determining the course of play contingent upon that event or outcome.
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