A Few Newbie Q's

Hi, new poster here. I've already learned some great new BJ info from you experts. Thanks. I've played BJ on and off for years on vacations, and even tried some simple card counting a few years back, but I'm still a novice to any kind of real systems. Can you give me a hand and answer a few questions?

The Indian casinos here around Phoenix now have blackjack, so my love of the game is driving me to becoming serious about learning good counting strategies.

The only casino I've been to, as of yet, has only the following game. I'm not sure if there are other variations available at other Phoenix area casinos, or if this is the only game allowed in the state.
o 5-deck shoe/shuffling machine (there's probably a name for these things)
o dealer hits a soft 17 (lousy)
o no surrender
o double down on any first 2 cards
o Ace splits get only one card
o can double on split hands

1) Can a good card-counter win against these rules?
2) With the 5-deck shuffling machine, how can you tell when to restart the count? Do I just start a count when I sit down, and reset it every 30 minutes, or something?
3) Many of the other players don't even know basic strategy. Does it matter if you are counting cards? Do you get up and leave the table if one or more other players are consistently playing dumb?
4) Does anyone know if the Phoenix casinos offer different rules than what I posted above?

Thanks for your answers!

You are describing a game with a continuous shuffling machine, also known around here as a CSM. This game cannot be beaten with card counting. It also has a very high house advantage as blackjack games go. If you want to play it for fun, fine, but you can't beat this game with card counting.

Not good. They finally pass legislation to allow Indian BJ here, and the only game around is unbeatable. That was smart. More revenue sharing for the state, I guess! Might as well donate the money to charity instead of trying to play slanted BJ.

Man, that's disappointing. There go my retirement plans. ;)

If anyone knows of a beatable BJ game in any of the casinos around Phoenix, please post it. Maybe there's hope.

What,are you crazy? Nobody should play this damn game,not even ploppies PERIOD.

you need a game dealt from an actual shoe and 5 out of 6 decks dealt...then you MIGHT have a fighting chance if you refuse to play any counts worse than -1. You'd be better off driving to Las Vegas once a month.

You might want to check out Fort McDowell, they have shoe games dealing 4.5/6. Hope this helps, but I would agree with the board that you would be better off driving the 4.5 hours to vegas!

For $90 round trip by air, forget that god forsaken drive! I've seen the Joshua Tree National Forest one too many times...at 3am...after gambling 24 hours straight. Now that I think back on it, I was pretty stupid in my twenties. I bet none of you were, though, huh? LOL!

Thanks for the tip about Ft. McDowell. Sounds like I have at least a chance there. I appreciate all the advice about how bad the rules are for the game I've seen here. Probably saved me some money.

Casino Arizona, are the same rules as you listed, except they allow resplitting aces and use 5 deck csm. I have been there about 70 times since February and have received one drink comp. They do not have a comp system in place, and for that will be seeing less of me.

Fort McDowell deals out of a shoe. Been there a few times and they do have a comp program, although I have not used it yet.

Harrah's uses 5 deck csm, but do not allow the resplit of aces. They have a bonus prize on suited BJ's. A few weeks ago they were giving away beads. This week, it was decks of used cards. There comp program is the best in the valley. During my first trip, they gave me a $40 meal comp, then in the mail I received a $70 meal comp, 2 nights hotel (excellent accomadations), and a $30 for $15 coupon. When I cashed it at the cage, they handed me $15 cash. Can't beat that deal.

As of a couple weeks ago, Gila River did not have BJ yet, but were getting ready.

For the most bang for your buck, I would recommend Harrahs.

Ace

If I were you, I'd learn poker. There are games in your area. More money to be made. Less hassles. Less fluctuations.. Less losing. You need a smaller roll to make the same money. Unless you're the fish. Then sit at my game.

I'm going to take you up on your advice. I've played poker all my adult life, but just socially with friends. And I know that casino poker players would eat me alive, so I've never had the guts to sit down at any of the poker tables. I've always wanted to though, so I guess I'll buy some books and start studying & practicing.

I've always been intrigued watching poker tournaments on TV.

I like the fact that it's a game the casino can't "doctor" to their advantage like the BS Blackjack games they offer around here in Phoenix.

Any good book suggestions or other advice? I've got a lot to learn. I probably have ten different "tells" I don't even know about and need to get rid of. LOL.

If you are going to learn hold 'em, my advice would be to by the following books:

Hold Em Poker-David Sklansky
Hold Em Poker for Advanced Players-David Sklansky and Mason Malmuth
Winning Low Limit Hold Em-Lee Jones
Hold 'Em Poker: From Beginner to Winner-Lou Krieger

www.twoplustwo.com is the website to visit. 2+2 publishes the first two books on the list. They also have good books on 7 cards Stud and Hi/Lo split games (and a ton of other good stuff as well). I just picked up Phil Helmuths book and am finding good stuff, but it wouldn't be a good first book.

The best thing about poker compared to blackjack is you need a lower bankroll to make the same money.

The best thing about blackjack compared to poker is once you know what you are doing, the right decision is always clear. That takes along time to learn in poker, and even then, pros will debate "the right thing" for almost any given situation.

Excellent, Red, thanks. I know it will take time, but everyone started somewhere. I understand what you mean about some poker plays being less structured than a math equation. But, I like that. It seems it would make it more interesting, and less acting like a computer with legs.

And how about Maverick pulling that royal flush to win the tournament?! Even impressed Jody Foster!

LOL.

Always good to see new players. One clarification: There is math involved in poker. It's not hard math, but you need to be aware of how much money is in the pot versus how for you to call or bet. Simple example from hold 'em. You hold Ah10h in the pocket,, in late position. Two hearts come up on the flop, but so does a king. Do you stay with your draw or fold? It depends. If there was $9 in the pot, you would probably fold to a bet (depending on the implied odds). If there was $24 in the pot you would look at another card. Of course it's not usually so obvious. That's where the math comes in. Not hard, but there.

Simple example from hold 'em. You hold Ah10h in the pocket,, in
late position. Two hearts come up on the flop, but so does a king.
Do you stay with your draw or fold? It depends. If there was $9 in
the pot, you would probably fold to a bet (depending on the implied
odds). If there was $24 in the pot you would look at another card.

First of all, it's not even sure that with only three people seeing the flop any of them will have a king.But even if this is the case, there is a 33% that you will see another heart either at the turn or at the river.So your pot odds are there.Besides you might win with any ace that will come up as you have a fair kicker and nobody raised prefop. My conclusion: don't fold whatever the pot.

Francis Salmon

PS. I'm just about to read a book about poker: "Middle Limit Holdem Poker" by Bob Ciaffone and Jim Brier

just finished reading this book. you will need to read & reread frequently & practice a lot to adopt all the strategies covered. and,as you say, nothing is "cut & dried" strategically in hold em. player nuances, styles etc. become more important than mathematical odds.