A-8

Is basic strategy to double A-8 vs. dealer's 6 when the dealer hits soft 17? Thanks.

Yes for pitch games but not for shoes.
+2 for shoe games. But for RA it's +4. However, be advised this play tends to attract the scrutiny squad; similar to splitting Ts.

Thanks. This was a shoe game and the dealer suggested it. I think he knew I was a "good" player. It was tempting because the count was pretty high. I think I would have won the double. I would imagine that it would bring some attention. Thanks again.

"Yes for pitch games but not for shoes."

No, that's wrong. The OP stipulated H17. It is BS to double A,8 v. 6 in multi-deck shoes when H17.

"However, be advised this play tends to attract the scrutiny squad; similar to splitting Ts."

I don't agree with this at all. Doubling A,9 is similar to splitting Tens, from a heat point of view. On the contrary, people double A,8 all the time, and precisely because, for certain decks and rules, it IS the proper basic strategy.

Don

You are certainly an authority on the game in my book. I have to say that I haven't seen very many people make this move in the many years I have played. And since I haven't seen too many counters (unless they somehow fooled me), I would doubt that too many people who did it were counters. Of course, it is possible. I'll keep my eye out for this in the future. Thanks.

Don's right. Missed the part about h17. Defective vision, I'd imagine.
But I notice it is rarely seen from basic strategist players in my area.

disagree with Don on this one. Don is correct that doubling A8 vs 6, SHOULD not draw attention as it is basic strategy for many situations, but that just has not been my experience. I would probably rate it as one of the least understood and utilized basic strategy plays. I am not going to say it is 'rare' that I see it, but I don't see it very often, even from players that are making most basic strategy plays.

The problem with this type of situation is that because many 95% basic strategy players don't make this play, if a player does make the play, they are almost certainly a very good basic strategy player and/or possibly a counter. I try not to show myself to be either for as long as possible.

The second problem with this identifying play is that it IS basic strategy. Often there are plays that start to identify you are a real good player (possibly counter) but they occur at a certain plus count, so by the time I expose myself, I have probably already triggered or am close to triggering my exit point. With this play being basic strategy, you begin to expose yourself, while the count is completely neutral.

I find this play a lot like splitting tens, in the fact that it may not be the attention that the play creates on it's own, but secondary attention, by other players at the table making comments and such. You can always counter such comments, by pointing out that it IS a basic strategy play, but then you have identified YOURSELF as at least a very good basic strategy player, maybe more. It's all just counter-productive, which is why it is one of my least favorite plays. I make it, but I hate it.

in your last sentence, hopefully intentional. Also good advice. I get enough heat, mainly from other players when it doesn't work out, when I double A-7. Not a word when I save the table with the move. In this case, it was the dealer who told me to make the move.
ANOTHER QUESTION: Is it only against the dealer's six that it is proper BS to double A-8 in a H17 shoe game? Thanks.

the pun was intended, but it never occurred to me. :(

Oh what the hell....yes it was intended! Lol.

"Is it only against the dealer's six that it is proper BS to double A-8 in a H17 shoe game?"

Yes. And, I would point out that a) the Hi-Lo index for the play is +1, so it occurs regularly enough; and 2) the play is one of the additional four indices added to the I18, to make the Catch 22, so it DOES have value.

I have never hesitated to make this play and can't remember its causing me any grief. Doubling A,9 is an entirely different matter, much more akin to splitting Tens than doubling A,8.

To each his own.

Don

Doubling A8 v 5 and 6 is looked at very oddly by both casino staff and the ploppies.

Don, I know you don't play much any more, but the current generation of players even bitches about hitting and/or doubling soft 18 because "18 is a winning hand and why mess with it." :-)

You state that with H17 it's BS to double A/8 v 6 but then you go on to say that the hilo-index is +1 for this play .This would be a contradiction. Could it be that you meant A8v5 with the latter statement?

Francis Salmon

Basic strategy is not a matter of age nor fashion. It's a purely mathematical thing.It's not clear whether you agree with these people who "don't want to mess with soft18".
Just for your information, not to double soft18v6 is a 10%-error and not to hit soft18 v 9 is an 8%-error.In comparison, hitting 12 v 6 is only a 2%-error.

Francis Salmon

of 21forme's post, Francis. He is well aware of the mathematics behind these plays (as am I), and he makes the correct play (as do I).

21's point was that because the younger generation, and I don't necessarily limit it to younger generation, I think the whole general public, blackjack playing world, has blurred the lines of basic strategy and isn't making certain plays like doubling A8 vs 6, doubling A7 vs 5,6, hitting A7 vs 9 and 10 like they should. Even players that for the most part are pretty decent BS players, now shy away from these BS plays.

The result is that when you do make these correct plays, you stand out more than you used to....more than you should. To pit or surveillance or anyone that is watching and knows a little about how to play the game, it sort of throws up a small red flag that you too know a little something about the game. The natural next step is for them to figure out if you are a good basic strategy player or something more.

So in effect, more and more players not making these plays correctly, shines the spotlight on those of us that do, a little bit earlier.

And any kind of verbal reaction by other players when you make these plays tends to highlight the situation even more. God forbid, if you answer back telling them it is the proper play, it just confirms that you are at the very least a knowledgeable player, completely negating any cover plays or tactics that you may have employed in an attempt to hide this fact.

It is just a lot of hassle and attention for plays that aren't even index plays but just basic strategy plays.

Good catch, Francis. My mistake. The play I was referring to was for S17, the only game I ever play. And my point was that, even there, since the index is "only" +1, it's a play that is quite common among counters and not one that I have ever worried about.

The Hi-Lo index for doubling A,8 v. 6, H17, is 0.

Don

Why not just have the Basic Strategy Card from the Gift Shop on hand.

It's just that 21forme didn't make it clear that he still would make these "odd" BS-plays even if the whole table were against it.
And it's absolutely essential that you do "mess with soft18". As I explained in my former post , doing otherwise is just to costly.
You have to accept the fact that a competent pit boss will anyway realize that you are a good player. And here we are only talking about BS-plays.
Furthermore, I totally agree with Don that with S17, A8v6 is a very valuable index play since it is very close to zero.

Francis Salmon

Francis,
As KJ knows, I usually ignore other players. Sorry if I wasn't clear. Of course I make these plays. However, I must admit to NOT surrendering 17 v A a couple of times at an H17 game, to avoid attention, on a recent trip.

From my experience playing at very high stakes, doubling down A8 vs 4,5,6 does not generate undue heat. When I was a small fry I used to think it would, but then once I started just doing it nobody at the table ever said a word unless I happened to catch a 2 as the hit card.

I agree with Don, A9 gets attention, but still not up to the level of splitting 10-10 because you have some plausible deniability in that you can claim you had tunnel vision and forgot that it was a soft hand and counted it as a 10, not a 20.

So what is basic strategy in H17 multi-deck game?
Double against dealer's 4,5,6? 5,6? 6?
Thanks.