1st time in the casino

Well i finally counting in some real games when i went to vegas last week. it was fun I was able to keep up most of the time. I didnt have that big of a bankroll so i wonged in and out of 2deck games alot and some 6D. While that pissed some of the of the players off esp when i wonged in and got BJ right off then left..lol. hey i wasn;t there to make friends though. I did ok didnt lose and came out ahead some.My question is wonging in and out the best way to play with a low bankroll??? I know im saving for a real bankroll(boreing).Using trip money though and wonging in and out seems to get some real casino experience while keeping risk down. The problem is its kinda like work, you gotta walk around alot and wait for a good count and get some stares. Any of you guys ever try this when u first started??? while i could keep the count i would still be slow while counting my multiple card hands and keep the count in my head. This seems to be my weakness right now. Any suggestions to improve on this aspect as well and i'd be greatful thanx

> The problem is its kinda like work... <

It's not "kinda like work" -- it IS work! At first it is very stressful, mentally exhausing work. However, the more you do it, the easier it gets -- but it NEVER stops being work.

> While i could keep the count i would still be slow while counting my multiple card hands and keep the count in my head. <

You need to do LOTS of practice with actual cards at your kitchen table. The more you practice, the more your mind will just "know" the count of any given 3- or 4- or even 5-card hand at a glance. In the meantime, you can act like a tired ploppy and ask the dealer to count your multi-card hands for you.

It takes all the fun out of the game. It's tedious, impossible to implement when the casino is crowded, and will cause beef with other players. It can also create heat with the house. Obviously on paper it's the ideal betting strategy, but realistically you may have to make some compromises. I'll always sacrifice some ev for an easier time at the tables.

Yes Dave on the weekend wonging was tough as all the tables were crowded. This brings up a question i have. Does it matter if you wong in on a table thats all most full if the count is high. Does more players mean they will get the good hands or is there just as much of a chance if its only 2 players or 6.7 and u wong in ????I have seen that alot of counters only play heads up or with no more than two players esp on double deck???Does that count for wonging as well??/ Thanx for the comments guys

You haqve the same chance of winning that particular hand regardless of the number of other players at the table. It doesn't affect your EV for that particular hand. The problem is that with more players, the excess extra cards get "eaten up" faster so you don't get as many "good" hands in.

For example, suppose that you are backcounting and the running count is +10. You might come in and play a hand (one spot). If there is only one other person at the table then the dealer is only dealing out 3 hands per round, so it is very likely that the count will remain positive for the next few hands. But if there are 6 other players and you grab the last seat, then the dealer is dealing out 8 hands total so the count could easily go negative during that hand, or the next one.

It also does bad things to your variance. Say you are playing heads up and the count goes up. As long as all the excess high cards are not behind the cut card, you will be at the table when the high cards come out, and they will either go to you or the dealer. But if it is a full table, then it is possible that the high cards come out, but they all go to other players. So even though the count drops (which is when you are supposed to make your money) it doesn't help you because the cards in other players hands may as well be being burned (face up). In other words, high cards that go to other players are "wasted". But if you are playing alone, then those cards will not be wasted... if they don't come out this hand, then they will come out next hand or the hand after, but eventually they will come out and you will be involved.

So, if you only plan on sitting, playing 1 hand, and then leaving, regardless of the outcome or count, then it doesn't matter how many other people are at the table. But since you want to stay while the count is good, you do much better at a short table because you get (on average) more high-count hands in, and your variance will be lower as well.

Keith

In terms of ev, a full table won't affect this, but ev is only one consideration. Another is frequency. Ideally, you want a heads up game. The more hands you see, the faster you approach your theoretical expectation. The faster game with lower ev may be superior. Time is money. Also, the dealer, you, and other players all have the same chance of getting a hand (unless you know otherwise). You can line up 20 players at a tc of say +4 before the start of the round, they will all be playing a +4 tc.

>>>(Wonging in) takes all the fun out of the game.

Depends on how you define "fun". I have fun beating the casinos at their own game.

>>>>It's tedious

Yes, it is tedious. So is counting. So is memorizing indices. So is reading all the posts here and all the AP books. Plopping down and gambling is nice and easy. AP is work.

>>>impossible to implement when the casino is crowded

Trickier, but not impossible. Ploppies frequently lose as the count increases (low cards were played). Sometimes one or two will leave right at wong-in time. (Last night, three ploppies left a table right as the TC hit +2, leaving me with an empty table! Made $1100 on that table, playing only two shoes. That's what I call fun!)

Also, you can always split 10s or double a soft 19 or 20 to piss off the ploppies (I typically don't unless the count calls for it, but it is a possibility). On the second shoe of that table I mentioned in the last parapraph, a ploppy who joined the table after the shuffle split 10s against a six at TC=1. He drew a king and an ace. The dealer had a four for a hole card; she drew a five and a face. I thanked the ploppy for his "wise play" and told him he should split 10s next time he gets them. The other ploppies at the table (they joined in as I was winning, but I did get them to wait for the shuffle at least) didn't fully endorse my opinion on the matter (LOL!), so they left. It was just the ploppy and me for the rest of the shoe. He made four more bonehead plays, all of which caused the dealer to bust (yes, bad plays are as likely to help as they are to hurt)! The plays kept the sightseers from having seats as well.

Alternately, you can play when the casinos are less crowded. I always do this, especially in Vegas.

>>> will cause beef with other players.

I do ask before I sit in on a table. Typically the table will be on a losing run, so they'll often welcome you. Sometimes they don't. If not, have a seat and put out the money when the dealer makes a hand.

As for the ploppies, I try to speak ploppy at the table, if I happen to care what they think. Just think of a reason your play will "help the table". Say stupid things like "I play for myself but I also play for the table". Good manners at tables do help longevity. I try to balance it vs. EV.

>>>It can also create heat with the house.

That can be true. However, ploppies frequently watch games for entertainment and to see if the dealer is "hot", so I do the same. I've never had a problem with it. Needless to say, this is a function of the store and of the layout. It's not always easy to hang around a high-limit area, stare at one or two games, and wong in as soon as a bunch of low cards come out. It is easy to wong in a lower-limit table when you can count down from a distance, and the house is less likely to notice (or care).

>>>Obviously on paper it's the ideal betting strategy, but realistically you may have to make some compromises. I'll always sacrifice some ev for an easier time at the tables.

I sacrifice a little EV for longevity, but not all of it. Even the best 6D has a low SCORE for play-all (unless you found a game with a half-deck or so pen). For a 6D game with a high SCORE (some exist), I personally prefer a play-most strategy (wong out on negative counts as long as you can save your seat).

">>>>It's tedious
Yes, it is tedious. So is counting. So is memorizing indices. So is reading all the posts here and all the AP books. Plopping down and gambling is nice and easy. AP is work."

Learning how to count and memorizing indices may be tedious. Once you master it, there is no thought to it, so it's not tedious to me. Standing around for hours playing only a few hands is something I can't get used to. I can do it, but if I can avoid it, I will.

">>>impossible to implement when the casino is crowded
Trickier, but not impossible. Ploppies frequently lose as the count increases (low cards were played). Sometimes one or two will leave right at wong-in time. (Last night, three ploppies left a table right as the TC hit +2, leaving me with an empty table! Made $1100 on that table, playing only two shoes. That's what I call fun!)"

Sometimes isn't good enough. Try backcounting on a summer weekend at AC or connecticut. If you can't enter a shoe, you have wasted time. Time wasted can hurt your hourly win rate like playing a lousy game. The figures you see of the superiority to backcounting assumes you can enter when it's time to enter. If you are relying on sole situations you mentioned above to happen, it's not going to work. You can backline a bet (if allowed), but then you are at the mercy of the other player's hand decisions.

losing your EV while the count is deeply negative is a bigger pain in the ass.

JMHO.

Regards,
drumz1

I caught that from your original post. Thanks for your reply.

Most here would probably disagree with you. Don Schlesinger, in BJA3, Chapter 1, Back-Counting the Shoe Game, says "If you've come down to (Atlantic City to) have fun playing lots of blackjack, stay home and play with your family. You've come to the wrong place. I come to win money.... We might play 15 minutes out of the hour; we might play even less. This doesn't appeal to you? Then you're a loser already, and they haven't even dealt out the first card."

That being said, we shouldn't all play the same way; there's plenty of room for different play styles. Hell, we'd all get caught with ease if we all did exactly the same thing, like robots. You should play your game how you want. Nothing wrong with that.

Math is math, though. The SCORE (BJA3 p. 157) for Hi-Lo 6D play-all, 4.5/6 S17 DAS, 1-12 spread is only 19.79 (very unplayable in the opinion of many here). The SCORE for Hi-Lo 6D wong-in @ +1 TC, 4.5/6 S17 DAS, 1-12 spread is 41.13 ($ Won/100 observed hands). Not wonderful, but a bit better. Find good pen (the SCORE goes to 63.84 @ 5/6) and LS and it is a decent game with back-counting. I'm like you in that I have to settle for what's available in this region (no LS, lucky to get 5/6 pen on occasion) when not on the road.

As for crowded tables, is AC crowded at 5 am? I get a lot of play in at sh*tty hours. Additionally, I hit Vegas and Tunica several times a year.

I hope you don't think I'm being too critical. We are all here to share information and ideas, after all. Best of luck with your game.

If you like wonging at 5:00AM in AC then all the power to you! My post was opinionated, obviously. I already previously acknowledged the superiority of backcounting. My point is that I don't care for it, and I am comfortable losing some ev for more table time, because it is still worth my while. I didn't mean to offend you strict backcounters, you are 1 in a million*.

"If you've come down to (Atlantic City to) have fun playing lots of blackjack, stay home and play with your family. You've come to the wrong place. I come to win money.... We might play 15 minutes out of the hour; we might play even less. This doesn't appeal to you? Then you're a loser already, and they haven't even dealt out the first card."

This prose was great for its day, and it wasn't intended for the audience of today's esoteric, computer sims people. You can still play a winning game without strict backcounting in AC. And it was the new school Don of today who told me this, with help of Mr Austin. But in all fairness, when Don lost that day, I can't quote it word for word cause I don't have the book on me, but he wrote it very dramatically, like his heart sank or something and the loss seemed devastating. This typical situation is something that a pro wouldn't even raise an eyebrow to. Again, it was a different time, different audience.

Dave

*-These figures can't be backed up :)