Game: 2D, H17, DOA, DAS, RSA, 75% Pen. Does this game "SCORE" at least 50?
Yesterday, I played 7 hours straight, with s short dinner break, at my local casino with the game listed above. I've never suffered such a large loss in one day of playing blackjack before. I was using KO with 1-8 spread, max bet only when the RC hit +8. I lost 100 green chips ($2,500) just like that!
Is this normal?
A marathon session like that is a good way to get barred.
I recently won more than that, in a little less time, playing a similar game at a couple different places. My max bet was just about the same as yours.
So, yes, it is possible.
For KO Preferred, per CVCX
...of your last 993 hours of play. What is the result in units?
Cobbson
Inquiry,
You failed to specify the precise bet schedule, so I guessed the following:
.
RC Bet
<2 $25
+2 $50
+3 $75
+4 $100
+5 $125
+6 $150
+7 $175
>7 $200
.
RC Bet
<2 $25
+2 $75
+3 $100
+4 $150
>4 $200
There is nothing dramatic about losing $2500 in 7 hours of play with a max bet of $200.You have to expect far bigger short term losses in the future.Paradoxically, such wild fluctuations are a good sign: it means that you get often the opportunity to bet big.
Francis Salmon
Nope, I haven't played that much yet. I am just a beginner. Since learning KO and keeping record, I've played 278.1 hours (mostly red chip). To date, I've lost $3,550.00. It is disheartening!
Hi Doghand,
I didn't follow the schedule you showed me. I've read Andersen's book and he said that he would not raise any bet unless he win the previous hand. So, I did similar like that. Is this not good?
Thanks for the schedule.
Hi Francis,
I haven't witness any trespass or barring yet at my local casino yet. Even in the "high roller" room, where players routinely betting $1000-5000 a hand, has no incident of that nature during the many times that I hang around to watch.
Some players are also bet wildly at the green chip table. Sometimes they bet $25 then raise to $500. Maybe they are not counter, I suppose?
I didn't address longevity at all.From outside, this is hard to judge. But if you don't feel any heat, I don't see why you shouldn't continue the way you do.
For a card counter it should be easy to detect a colleague. Two conditions: he has to bet in line with the count and he has to make correct strategy decisions.
Francis Salmon
Hi Fracis,
There are many different kind of counting systems out there. I'm only learning KO. Now, can I also tell if someone is using a different count, for example, Hi-OptII?
Thanks.
Inquiry,
I realize now that you're a brand-new member of our fraternity: welcome to the wonderful world of card counting!
Ian Andersen's advice is geared to high-stakes players, so until you're betting purple chips, don't follow his suggestions.
To illustrate what I mean, I ran six sims of the game we've been discussing: DD, H17, DA2, DAS, RSA, 75% pen, for a card counter using KO-Preferred (that means using the FULL index table). In all the sims the player used this same bet schedule:
.
RC Bet
<2 $25
+2 $50
+3 $75
+4 $100
+5 $125
+6 $150
+7 $175
>7 $200
.
3 play 1 play Bet Cover
80.23 82.63 No Cover
43.54 57.29 No Inc after Loss
4.48 11.55 All Cover
Ian's book is written for heavy black chip players (except for the section on double deck play). When you wait to raise your bet you magnify the cost of the house edge on your smaller bets as a part of your total action.
My advice for you in this regard is:
1. Always be willing to jump your bet by at least 3x your off the top starting bet size on the lower end of your bet ramp.
2. As the count rises always increase your bet by several chips in the color which you play regardless of wins and losses.
3. When the count tanks take your bets down to your shuffle off the top bet regardless of how many hands in a row you've won.
If you do all of these things even if you sometimes don't make it all the way to your top bet scheme you will still get the lions share of your EV. Most of your EV gain comes while getting from your bottom bets to your mid-level bets as quickly and optimally as possible. Going from your mid-level bets to your max bet allows for some wiggle room for cover purposes but you should always be progressing to your top bet by some incremental amount regardless of wins and losses.
All the different counting systems have the same goal: detect advantage situations.With betting correlations of well over 90% for the most popular systems they will lead to the same conclusion most of the time.An exception is shuffle tracking.
Francis Salmon
is normal and can be expected on a regular basis. Expect it and plan for it both financially and emotionally. Double check your count and playing decisions every time before you play so that you know that you are not making mistakes and so that you don't worry about it later. You lost approximately 12 top bets. I am sorry that you lost but realize that the longer you play bigger fluctuations can happen. I have lost 82 top bets in last 22 hours of play. This game will make you talk to yourself.
shit happens sometimes, even when you play it by the book. Lose the cover though - it is likely contributing to your loss. Still, a single session loss provides little information.
Although it hasn't been mentioned, it's always a good idea to analyze the session retrospectively, and ask yourself honestly, "Did you play well?"
Were the bet spread/ramps appropriate?
Did you lose the count much?
Did you Wong out and go to the bathroom or walk away to make a phone call during those shitty counts?
Did you deviate from BS when appropriate?
How many indices are you using? - with the Illustrious 18 (minus splitting tens) being the minimum
Hand in there. We've all been crushed before, and more than once, I promise you.
Inquiry, I am in a similar boat to you as a beginning counter, but I have avoided the heavy losses so far.
As others have pointed out, at our bet level, you can't use much if any betting cover. The hourly wins are just too low at green chip play, you have to bet pretty close to the count. I would suggest you re-read Andersen's chapter on green chip play*. I followed this advice on my last trip to Vegas, especially the part about limiting sessions and trying to be anonymous. My sample size proves nothing since it was just one trip, but I had a modest win and wasn't barred anywhere. I was spreading $25-$250 at 6 deck games using KISS III, so very similar situation to you ($25 unit, unbalanced count).
You should never play for 7 hours in one place, unless maybe the casino owner is your girlfriend :).
*ironic that he means low-stakes, when the Green Chip section of this site is for serious high-stakes players. Why not call this site's membership section Black or Purple Chip?
Hi,
I'm exceptionally sorry for your "huge" loss too. You must have a very large BR that is capable to obsorbe such a big loss. How long have you been doing it?
After I lost that $2,500 loss, I talked to myself to whole drive back swearing to get it back one day!
Good luck to you friend.
Doc,
Thanks! In retrospect, I did make some mistakes and lost count several times. About those indices, it seems outrageous, some of them anyhow, such as hit hard 12 against dealer's 5 or 6 in low count. I've seen player been cussed at while doubling on a hard 12 that led to the dealer's 21! How do you deal with that?
Dog Hand,
Thanks for welcoming me to the community!!! I am a true green horn at real blackjack. I'll use your "no cover" play when I hit the casino this late afternoon, play red chip at a different casino that offer $5 minimum, but the rule is not as good: DD, DOA, RSA, No DAS 70% pen. But the darn thing is, all low limit tables seem to be always full of player with 7 spots! How do you deal with that?
Recommendation on count system? I'm an average intelligence guy with not so good memory, but can concentrate ok. I'm going to concentrate playing DD for 6 months or so, which is the most appropriate count should I use so in the near future so I can depend on it to supplement my livelihood? If this works, in about 5 more years after I sell my business, I can put up $100,000 BR.
Thanks again for your kindness.
